Tirane Moderator
Posts: 517
(6/27/03 4:35 pm) Reply
Aromanians, Wlachs in Albania...
look at this link, which clearly states that the best Wlach scholars, like Tom Winnifrith etc estimated Vlach population in Albania's Hoxha up to 200.000, which explains the wide gap inbetween the number of greek minority given from Greek government and that given from the albanian one.
Tirane Moderator
Posts: 518
(6/27/03 4:39 pm) Reply
Re: Aromanians, Wlachs in Albania...
Also,
look at the map, where the Wlach population is located, which occupies the very area of orthodox albanian population. Outside of that Wlach area there are no other Orthodox populated areas.
Read it free minded, probably you will find yourselves o lost and albanized Wlacho-Slavo-Greeks!
Edited by: Tirane at: 6/27/03 4:48 pm
Tirane Moderator
Posts: 519
(6/27/03 4:54 pm) Reply
Re: Aromanians, Wlachs in Albania...
Because of lack of time I will stop with another point for today:
look at the reasons given, why Aromanians failed to form their own nation.
the fourth one states:
Pro-Romanian Aromanian nationalsists eventually sought emancipation in the newly-formed Albanian nationa-state, while others were assimilated into the Greek nation and participated in the Greek nationalist movement
- Among these are those Naum Veqilharxherat&Co, who as Slavicized or hellenized Vlachs are being claimed continuosly by Macedonians or Greeks as being theirs.
- these are the founders of albanian nation, and they did it simply to oppose the Greek influence!!!!
ps I have noticed that those who are albanized Vlachs, who were formerly slavicized or hellenized, are very soft people (probably because they have been all time unprotected and obliged to survive under other rulers)...and I call them usually who are also my friends with albanian cosy-words...."lepurush", or "dele"....
but it's very interesting to see how much they are albanized, in the sense that they really think they have been albanians forever....
one of these types of soft people is AlbElena in this forum (although doesnt belong to my albanized Vlach friends)!
Edited by: Tirane at: 6/27/03 5:02 pm
Interesting
Funny, the same author says "200,000 is probably is probably exaggerated".
Further, he writes "there are probably 35,000 vlachs throughout Albania".
The very fact that majority of the orthodox community in Albania is abanian, indicates that the Vlachs were overwhelmed numerically by their albanian counterpart and therefore they were albanianized.
You say all those people, Naum Veqilharxhi etc were Vlachs? Proove it, dont tell us what you believe.
Also, even if it“s true, so what? What“s your point? Every nation in the world, even exotic african tribes are racially, more or less heterogenous.
There have been large Vlach settlements in Serbia to, North Albania and Kosova to. I probably have some Vlachic blood in me to? Maybe both of us are Gypsies? You cant go back in time, you cant count those people as Vlaachs, it“s like those early serbs and ther "arnautash" thesis, which claimed that all kosovars are serbs.
Serbs have also mixed with Vlachs (which probably explains their brunet pigmentation in comparison with other slavc people), ike that serbianized "Luctor" whom claims beeing "illyian" and that we are chechens or something.
My point is that Vlachs probably mixed with us, but so what, Vlachs have mixed with everyone. They probably in their turn were romanized albos. There are theories which indicates that.
There was even one here, I think his name was Proudalb, he announced he had Vlachic ancestry, but that he was proud of beeing albo, so what, let him be that!
There“s the link. Besides dealing with the number of the vlachian minority in Albania he also deals with the greek minority.
Indeed he is very progressive in this vlach issue.
Ndoshta mban mend bisedėn qė e patėm mė "vorio-epirotėn" Ona? Nga ajo bisedė e mora kėtė faqe, interesante ėshtė historia e kėtyre ballkanasve tė romanizuar.
The word density
>look at the map, where the Wlach population is located, which occupies the very area of orthodox albanian population. Outside of that Wlach area there are no other Orthodox populated areas.
I do not know if you know the word density, as it is very important in this case.
Even if all the orthodox albanians were wlachs, it would be no problem for us.
shpata Moderator
Posts: 627
(6/28/03 4:08 am) Reply
this map is false. though it may be mostly correct, there are parts of it that lie. such as maleshova on that map being labeled as a village with small vlach miority. im half malshovit and all i got to say is what vlachs??? vlach are non-existant there. who knows how many other villages were sneaked in there.
now back to the map. those shaded areas show grazing grounds not population. population is shown in villages, and as i can see, most of these villags are vlach minority not majority. there are about 50 villages on the map all together. its impossible for the number to be 200,000 unless all villaes are 100% vlach.
the map shows nothing. there are orthodox in elbasan, in pogradec, in laberia, in zagori. vlach are only a tiny miority there. these assumptions are very unrealistic and obviously propaganda tirane is willing to believe to make himself fel better. we have arvanities in greece, they were clearly albanians. how come they arent muslim?? are they orthodox because they are vlach?? come on be serious. even the vlach site shows the axctual vlach number and metions orthodox albanians!!! i mean he distinguish them from vlach, the only people who would porpusely say orthodox albs are vlach are the anti-allbo people, like serb nationalists. usual BS, serbs are known for this and tirane is a fine and repeatable example of this.
and hasnt it hit your head yet tirane that vlach would settle among orthodox alb communities rather than muslim alb ones???
ps look at that, vlora as a strong vlach population, now we see where these sigurimi people came from and what attitude they have (like that of the herceg vlach-tirane). Edited by: Tirane at: 6/28/03 12:55 pm
Tirane Moderator
Posts: 521
(6/28/03 1:06 pm) Reply
Re:
Of course, there shouldnt be a problem normally in case all orthodox in Albanian would have been Vlachs.
What the problem is, is that any theory of eternal autochthony and of clear descendancy from an single people falls away, and it becomes a sort of bull.sh.it we are so fed up of.
You will have to lear more Shpat aboyt what you talk about. In here we are talkning about potencial Vlachs, and not only those who confess today to be such. As you can see clearly, the orthodox areas of Albania are completely in the same territory that has been vital for Vlachs, who are also orthodox.
The map is covering South Albania/Northern Epir, and it doesnt talk about Elbasan/Tirane/Shkoder
but just to let you know, most of orthodox people of these towns are formerly Vlachs either from South Albania who left their former settlements because of social and economical changes, or Slavo-Vlachs from Yugoslavia, as it as been the case with many prominent orthodox figures in Shkodra.
Outside of the area given in the map there is not a single other orthodox area. And what is most "surprisingly" is that in these areas are also predominantly of Slavic topomymy...
=======
Slowly slowly, it is becoming clear why did the Slavic toponyms resist for such a long time in Albania.
You know that in Lushnja, Kavaje and Fier exist orthodox villages and they are for sure not wlachs, I know some of them. They are not there because of better conditions, because Gjirokastra has always had a better standart of life than these places.
Or are they from Yugoslavia ?
Slavic toponyms doesn't mean serb toponyms, but most probably bulgar toponyms.
Tirane Moderator
Posts: 527
(6/29/03 1:09 am) Reply
Re: re
You guys
none of you, who as claimed they are bulgarian toponyms, does speak neither bulgarian nor serbian. I have brought you in here the article of Serbian toponymy in Albania...Serbian only, and this according to Bulgarian specialists.
A russian scholar claimed even they are about 1200 serb -slavic toponyms in Albania.
Myzeqeja is the most populated area from Vlach people.
As I said, there is not a single area with orthodox people outside areas of Vlach people, and most of these places are of Slavic toponymy!!!!
At the end it doesnt matter whether bulgarian or serb. What the point is, is the claimed autochthony, which has no chance to be valid in there..
shpata Moderator
Posts: 640
(6/29/03 2:11 am) Reply
Re: re
myzeqeja.......
when edith duham visited she recorded albs and vlach orthodox living together. as i said its only natural that vlachs will settle among otehr orthodox communities rather than muslim alb ones.
orthodox albs have been recorded before vlachs started their migrations north from pindos.
Tirane Moderator
Posts: 532
(6/29/03 2:28 am) Reply
Re: re
amazing...!
E. Durham was a traveller. She cant be the best source of retelling history. I have never seen modern historians quoting her to make decisive opinions about a issue in Balkans.
She could have been lied easely...and there are many other things that make her records respectable but not a final source.
After all she is a author of the end of 19 century!!!!
We are talking for the last millennia.
shpata Moderator
Posts: 643
(6/29/03 2:33 am) Reply
Re: re
tirane ive come across vlach sites. they mention that vlach groups came from the south. orthodox albs have been there even before such migrations. what does it mean???
that vlach while migrating north would settle among orthodox communities. same thing in macedonia. vlachs in krusevo settled among maces not albs(which ofcourse muslim). its human nature to settle in soocieties where you feel comftorble.
what about the arbėreshi?
Vlachs are/were a nomadic people. They travelled along the roads, they were good with horses etc. Their presence has been recorded throughout the modern states of the Balkans, from Greece to Herzegovina.
Beeing a nomadic people, they (the Vlachs) had no real settlements, Imagine if you were Vlachs, wuld you prefere living with muslim albos or albos with the same religion as you?
What about the arbėreshi? If Vlachs were assimilated very lately, how come the arbėreshi (whom are mainly orthodox) only speak albanian and refer to themselves as arbėresh and not vlleh or coban (alb terms for Vlachs)?
The very facr that majority of the orthodox comunity in Albania speak albanian and consider them albos, indictates that the eventual significiant number of Vlachs were overwhelmed by albos, therefore they were albanianized!
Tirane Moderator
Posts: 538
(6/29/03 3:07 am) Reply
Re: re
why did i make my fingers tired by quoting page by page Tom winnifrith as he was saying that throught medieval "albania" vlachs were the one to have florished cities of Berat, Voskopoje, Vlore etc...
byeonf those there are no other "civilized" places in albania!
shpata Moderator
Posts: 647
(6/29/03 3:18 am) Reply
Re: re
i thoug vlora was greek and slavic in the middle ages?? now its vlach!!! this is getting tiring, choose one scenerio and stick with it. stop jumping from tree to tree.
Quote:byeonf those there are no other "civilized" places in albania!
mixing with romans made them such. but if vlaxh created prosperity, and cultural centers, than the orthodox albs would have a stronger sense about religion and keep it as many albs did in greece(arvanities didnt turn muslim because of their stronger part of their identity which depended on their religion).
next time your whole posting will be deleted for such titles
Omg, now he“s claiming Vlachs are superior to the albos. When wil this stop?
Also, he made all those important albs lke Ismail Qemali, Kastrioti clan, Gjon Buzuku, Pjetėr Budi slavs/Vlachs/Greeks? I wonder who is making the history false here?
Paskan lftue mė pasion vllehėt pėr kombin tonė sipas Hamzės lol.
Edited by: Tirane at: 6/29/03 3:55 am
shpata Moderator
Posts: 651
(6/29/03 5:35 am) Reply
especially about arvanities and suli. geeez how could there be orthodox albs that migrated from today south albania. shouldnt they be vlach??
Tirane Moderator
Posts: 542
(6/29/03 5:44 am) Reply
Re: re
you are destined to fail:
(1) are doubting in the research of Tom Wnnifrith?
(2) the maps you brought, the second, it just verifies Vinnifrith's map, which shows an area of vlach settlemnt which occupies all south orthodox areas, supposedly populated from albanians.
(3) there are albanised vlachs even among the so called arvanitasi...
vlachs have been a very complex meeting point for greeks and the so called albanians, whom greek claim as being hllenes in origin. probably they have been albanised -vlacho-greeks.
however the point is:
Orthodox areas in south Albania, as shown from maps and history have had an heavy Vlach presence with an unalterable role in their economical social life. There is little chance for purity of the selfclaimed orthodox albanians, especially when they start telling how their grandfathers were excellent traders!!!!
==========
where does that change from the situation in Serbia and Greece:
these two nations have netered history with the same name, language and costums, and so are known today. so, even in case there would have been vlachs among them if there went on assimilation that was on the part of vlachs who were slavicized or hellenized.
Serbs are not living in areas of foreign toponymy, foereign culture etc...
In albanian this is not the case
think ...
in Vlora we have vlach settlements in places with Slavic toponymy!!!!!!
Selenica, Zvernec, Drashovice...(Trbac...another typical serb type of word..with thre consonansts following eachother and ac at the end of the word like Drac), Kamenice etc etc
Look
The very fact that Vlachs were albanianized (if they were) is that they were overwhelmed by albos.
No people is homogenous. And Vlachs probably are romanized albos!
shpata Moderator
Posts: 654
(6/29/03 6:01 am) Reply
re
Quote:you are destined to fail
actually you are, and already have so. as you are no longr an tosk. that could be because you were raised by russian grandparents.
what i forgot to put was that the first map shows vlach colonies in 1796!!!!!!!
vlach in there are missing in sarande, gjirokaster, berat and myzeqe area.
whats going on?? than later they have expanded furhter north.
1)yes tom is vlachophil. the number would be more likely around 100,000 not 200,000.
2)the map doesnt say vlach majority, it only says were vlach live. the other map provided my tom shows the actual villages, and most of these villages are actually vlach minority not majority!!!!!
Quote:(3) there are albanised vlachs even among the so called arvanitasi...
really?? show us how, where becuase i never heard of such. all we know of the arvanities is they were albs, mixed with greeks, and are today hardcore greek nationalists.
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