Creativity and it's borders
Is there a difference between the creative energy expended to create art, music, poetry, etc and the creative energy expended to design a new engine system for a car? Or create the perfect wedding cake?
Are there "degrees" of "creativity" used in different pursuits? Is the "highest" degree of "creativity" necassarily expended in the creation of art?
What is creativity? If there are multiple definitions to be applied to multiple pursuits, what are they?
manniac Registered User
Posts: 1
(6/28/01 10:52 pm) Reply
Re: Creativity and it's borders
Creativity is creativity.
The notion that one form is "higher" than another comes from the arrogance often found in those who are ultimately unsure of themselves.
Quote: The notion that one form is "higher" than another comes from the arrogance often found in those who are ultimately unsure of themselves.
I can't let you get away with this, manniac. This certainly sounds nice but it is far too easy.
If this is true then there are indeed no levels of any abstract quality. We are not talking about inherent creativity here, in other words, the baker may have more inherent creativity than the writer, however, does the baker use the same amount and the same quality of creativity when he throws together a wedding cake as the writer does when he throws together a novel?
Does the computer programmer use the same type and level of intelligence to write a program as the track star uses to win a 400 meter dash?
This doesn't mean that the track star is dumb, nor does it mean that the track star doesn't use his/her intelligence to plot out the race strategy, nor does it mean that the programmer is a bright guy, but I would suggest that different aspects of "intelligence" are coming into play and that, in the programmer's job, he is require to make use of a "higher" (read "more intense/focused") form of intelligence than the track star.
What aspects of the creativity used by someone who is making art/music/writing/performance, etc are different from someone persuing a non art related field?
Edited to add: hey, lookie! My rings showed up!
Edited by: NousPoetikos at: 7/1/01 6:10:18 pm
manniac Registered User
Posts: 8
(7/1/01 7:17 pm) Reply
Re: Creativity and it's borders
To me, creativity is the rearrangement of individual parts into a unique and distinctly different whole. The parts may be concrete (such as paint or bits of clay), or ephemeral (such as thought processes or musical notes).
No matter what value an observer places on the finished product, or the ease with which the artist accomplishes his goal; the value of the process itself is identical. The subtleties of flavor, texture and aroma that the chief combines to make an exquisite meal is equal to the character development, plot progression and imagery combined by the writer of the next best selling novel.
Quote: To me, creativity is the rearrangement of individual parts into a unique and distinctly different whole. The parts may be concrete (such as paint or bits of clay), or ephemeral (such as thought processes or musical notes).
This is where we differ then, manniac.
I do see what you're describing above as an integral part of creativity. It is, in a sense, a problem solving aspect of creation, finding and creating patterns, placement, dissonance.
However, in non-art related fields, empathy/compassion does not enter into the making process in the same way. I see artistic creativity (when it really is present, which is rare) as encompassing a level of empathy and compassion which allows the work to almost "live".
I have, for example, been almost transfomed by a Brahms concerto...but a piece of cake or a well designed car has never altered my innards. There is sculpture which seems to breathe, the Mona Lisa appears half suspended between scorn, embarrassment and flirtation, there is poetry that sounds to me as if it issued from my own silence, as if it existed before me, hangs in the air around me and will exist when I am no more. No cake or car can do that. Why?
To me, the reason is empathy. The artist/poet/musician had to BE that note, that word, that face, that marble or bronze arm that seems warm with blood in order to reach the point where I, as a viewer/reader/listener absorb the thing they made as if it were part of me already.
An engineer designing a car has ergonomic calculations...that's not the same. A chef baking a cake has an understanding of how variations of the ingredience will effect the palate and the texture...still (to me) not the same. Those go back to problem solving.
manniac dharma explorer
Posts: 20
(7/4/01 8:32 am) Reply
Re: Creativity and it's borders
I understand what you're saying, but.....
Quote: ...in non-art related fields, empathy/compassion does not enter into the making process in the same way. I see artistic creativity (when it really is present, which is rare) as encompassing a level of empathy and compassion which allows the work to almost "live".......but a piece of cake or a well designed car has never altered my innards.
What if it does touch my innards? Different things speak to different people...
Re: Creativity and it's borders
I think of myself as a fixer, subsequently my bias is function/form. Creators on the other hand tend to be form/function the fact that it serves a purpose after assembly is great, that it is pleasing to the senses is given the priority.
Re: Creativity and it's borders
You phrased that beautifully, Keld Feldspar.
I think I tend to catagorize and sub-catagorize and sub-sub-catagorize states of emotion, manniac, which is probably why we're coming up on different ends of this.
Wanderer Registered User
Posts: 7
(11/3/01 7:40 pm) Reply
Re: Creativity and its borders
This is one of those cases where I am happy to be able to see the points of both sides of an argument.
I agree with Nous to the extent that I believe there is a certain type of empathy which distinguishes art from other forms of artifice. I also agree with manniac to the extent that I believe all forms of artifice have the same potential to serve our empathic desires. A baker can put as much love into a cake that Brahms put into any of his concertos. Do most bakers do this? Certainly not. But that is because most bakers are either baking to make money or baking because they are hungry. That is a cultural context which does not reflect the creative potential of the art form.
Edited by: Wanderer at: 11/3/01 8:44:29 pm
It seems I will be doing a great deal of thinking in the next few days in order to keep up with you Wanderer.
It is good to see this forum get more attention. I think with the advent of the war, it's become rather hard for people (myself included) to clear their heads of the mess.
I'm afraid I get rather stubborn on the subject of creativity. I do try to compromise by splitting it into two cases:
1. creativity (play, problem solving, invention, empathy with the user, viewer, experiencer of the work)
2. Creativity (work which results from sources unknown and makes use of a level of empathy for the object being made and/or the source for that object before using empathy for the person/people who will be viewing/experiencing or using the work).
i.e. if I am drawing a tree, I would use creativity to describe the form of that tree on paper. I would use Creativity to feel myself as that tree must feel in space and time in order to funnel that into the drawing.
Sadly, while it is not my intention to prioritize one over the other...its somewhat inescapable.
Your answer reflects the same sort of take I have on morality i.e. that it is the reason behind the act that matters more than the act...but I think Creativity (or creativity) can have any motivation and still be true to the descriptions above.
I believe the ranges of activity in which Creativity is possible are somewhat limited...although I have problems supporting my argument on this count. Somehow when process begins to take priority over expression, I think an activity ceases to be able to make use of Creativity and therefore, cannot result in art.
A rather famous artist (John Baldessari) was asked if he thought Video/computer art (Naim June Paik, for example) was the wave of the future. While his personality and work would indicate that he would be open to the possibility, his answer was: "Not until using a computer or video is as flexible as the use of a pencil".
There's something to that answer which rings true...as impossible as it is for me to pinpoint it. A certain amount of "removal by nature of process" detracts from one's ability to operate with empathy.
Wanderer Registered User
Posts: 8
(11/4/01 11:32 pm) Reply
Re: Creativity Nous
I am not sure what to say about 9-11 and how it has effected discussion boards. There certainly has been a negative effect--people seem to be carrying their emotions a lot closer to the surface and some seem more anxious than usual to criticize and attack. But perhaps that is just my imagination. Perhaps now I am just a bit more sensitive to aggression.
In any case, I hope your room is ready for more attention.
I like your distinction between creativity and Creativity. I also agree that the ability for an artist to empathize with the object(s) of expression is not dependent on the motivation. Rather, it is dependent on how the creator is directing his emotions and creative expression. I would say it is a matter of interest. Most bakers are not Creative, because they are mainly interested in the exchange value of their artifice. They are interested in the process of creation only in so far as it gets them something else.
I think the reason many realms of expression seem incapable of producing Creative works of art is because they are heavily dominated by the desires of commercial industry. The most successful bakers, for example, are the ones with the best business sense, not necessarily the ones that are the most Creative.
I think a computer can be as flexible as a pencil. I don't think technological development has to have a negative influence on Creativity. Unfortunately, it seems that most technological advancements express other desires.
Edited by: Wanderer at: 11/5/01 11:03:25 am
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies 
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies