Prime Minister Minister At-Large Party Leader DLP
Posts: 1450
(30/9/05 23:18)
DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
The Tománnach Military Act.
Preamble: This constitutional amendment is to enable the reorganisation of the civil war militias into a single unified national force. This act will comprise of two interlocked pieces of legislation. The first is this amendment, which paves the way for the Organisational act. Well if an act is required of course I'm not sure how much of what I discussed with Gotz would require Dail permission. I just hope this allows us to get things officially rolling. Once it does I'll paste a summarised version of the organistional discussions with the King of Gotz.
Article One – Commander In Chief.
1. The President of the Republic serves as the ceremonial “Commander in Chief” of the armed forces.
2. In the absence of the President the Prime Minister serves this role instead.
Article Two – The Ministry of Defence.
1. There will be established the Ministry of Defence which will be an open forum.
2. During times of war this will be known as the war office and access will be restricted to military personnel and high-ranking civilian officials.
3. A minister of defence will be appointed by the Prime minister as part of their cabinet announcement at the beginning of each Dail term. The Defence minister will oversee the organisation and deployments of the Military. They will also oversee the implementation of policies and procedures set forth by the Dail and present the needs of the General Staff to the Dail.
4. The Defence minister must be member of the Dail unless Dail population does not allow this at which point the present has the ability to make an executive decision to appoint a non ministerial citizen to the role.
5. The Defence minister must ensure that all military conduct complies with the legal and constitutional boundaries of the Tomann republic.
Article Three – Declarations of War.
1. The Parliament of Talamthom has the sole authority to declare by a two third majority vote.
2. In the event of a national emergency the president may deploy the armed forces without consent from parliament. In this event the President must provide a written report to the Dail within 48 hours of deployment. Where upon the Dail can decide to rescind the Presidents orders with a two-thirds majority vote.
Article Four – Recruitment.
1. The joining of the armed forces is strictly voluntary for all citizens over the age of 18.
2. All personnel of the Tomann armed forces must be citizens of the Republic of Talamthom for at least 30 days before appointment and recruitment unless otherwise authorised by the President or the Dail Tomann.
3. The armed forces are strictly prohibited from discriminating against any citizens application to join based on sex, sexual orientation, language, ethnicity, colour, marital status or political orientation.
Article five – Military Bases.
1. It is the job of the Defence Minister to organise the locations of Military bases around Tomannach Territory in accordance with the needs of the General Staff and the wishes of the Dail Tomann.
Oh yeah and i realise this is disjointed and stuff partly cause its a rehash of the original act and second because my brains taken leave of me lately. Edited by: tomann at: 1/10/05 9:49
Uachtarain na Tománn
President of Talamthom DLP
Posts: 472
(1/10/05 12:45)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
I have a couple of problems with this...
1. There doesn't need to be an ammendment. Just two pieces of legislation (two 'Acts').
2. The Commander in Chief is not a ceremonial position, it's the source of authority for the organisation-- though it may seem ceremonial at most (all?) times. So if that word could be dropped, that would be cool.
3. The Prime Minister should never be in control of the Armed Forces. In the absence of the CIC, the next highest ranking member of the Armed Forces should assume control.
4. ... this feeds into the next point: The Defence Minister (as I have said before) should not have direct control over the Armed Forces. The Armed Forces should be an entirely self-contained organisation... the task of the Defence Minister is to act as a liaison with the Cabinet/Dáil, to discuss budgets and advise on legislative matters (juristiction and the like). The Dáil should exert a small measure of control over the Armed Forces in terms of agreeing its budget and favourable legislation from time to time-- nothing more.
Just a few points... glad to finally see this, Mark. ;-)
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2385
(1/10/05 14:22)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
Well there does need to be an amendment actually. We need to address the issues of responsibilty in the constitutional article on the President.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2388
(1/10/05 19:54)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
I agree with points 2,3 and 4.
Prime Minister Minister At-Large Party Leader DLP
Posts: 1456
(1/10/05 20:15)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
As a point of laziness I should point out that except for 3 rewordings and the deletion of the 6th clause which i think was originally written to appease Yorke, this is the same bill one of my colleagues submitted around easter time. I had written a decent version however I forgot to save it when I stopped to eat and to be honest I couldn't be arsed to rewrite it. I do have a full transcript of the work myself and Gotz did pre ezboard disaster on the organisation of the forces and will paste it into the ministry of defence when it is created. Its quite comprhensive so I would advise using it but thats up to you.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2390
(1/10/05 23:31)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
I did think it looked rather familiar. I suggest this debate be dropped in favour of a worthwhile revision of the Military legislatively.
For example: An ammendents bill and a separate legislative bill.
Uachtarain na Tománn
President of Talamthom DLP
Posts: 475
(2/10/05 11:15)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
Alternatively, how about those announcements I proposed Tom?
Mark-- I'd been planning to create (via a couple of Executive Announcements) a Department of Military Planning, under the Executive Branch. Mr Portela was going to head it up as its Director, and work with the Dáil to bring about the necessary legislation. It wouldn't be exclusive of the legislation you're proposing-- just give some legitimacy to the whole affair and enable us to get moving with the stuff you and August Charles II talked about sooner rather than later.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2392
(2/10/05 13:24)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
To be honest i am a little pissed off with this.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2397
(2/10/05 14:45)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
Because this act we've waited so long for is quite frankly sub-standard. You could do 10-times better than this and the discussions in Santos prior to the Ezcrisis showed that. I know it may have wiped your interested out along with the posts but say that and we could have had an open debate to get the legislation moving again.
This bill is otherwise basically the same as the one Vindrus York submitted and I put into regular format. What we really need is an ammendments bill and a separate piece of legislation. This just dissappointed me.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2398
(2/10/05 15:19)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
Yes it has, but you also promised months ago that you had a masterpiece up your sleeve. I think your excuse of:
Quote:I only submitted it to get a general discussion on the subject which seems to have worked.
Is a poor one. I doubt that was the reason at all.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2401
(3/10/05 16:22)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
And with respects to changes to the Presidential role and powers required?
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2413
(4/10/05 22:05)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
Well that might be your ideal but in real terms won't suffice!
Minster At-Large Party Leader LPT
Posts: 955
(4/10/05 22:13)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
You asked for it.
Quote: The Tománnach Military Act.
Preamble: This constitutional amendment is to enable the reorganisation of the civil war militias into a single unified national force. This act will comprise of two interlocked pieces of legislation. The first is this amendment, which paves the way for the Organisational act. Well if an act is required of course I'm not sure how much of what I discussed with Gotz would require Dail permission. I just hope this allows us to get things officially rolling. Once it does I'll paste a summarised version of the organistional discussions with the King of Gotz.
You don't need a preamble.
Quote:Article One – Commander In Chief.
1. The President of the Republic serves as the ceremonial “Commander in Chief” of the armed forces.
2. In the absence of the President the Prime Minister serves this role instead.
What is a ceremonial C-in-C? Doesn't the Constitution already designate the President as C-in-C? (I hope it does.)
Maybe call article one the "Chain of Command." Then list it: PM, Min of Def, etc...
Quote:Article Two – The Ministry of Defence.
1. There will be established the Ministry of Defence which will be an open forum.
2. During times of war this will be known as the war office and access will be restricted to military personnel and high-ranking civilian officials.
3. A minister of defence will be appointed by the Prime minister as part of their cabinet announcement at the beginning of each Dail term. The Defence minister will oversee the organisation and deployments of the Military. They will also oversee the implementation of policies and procedures set forth by the Dail and present the needs of the General Staff to the Dail.
4. The Defence minister must be member of the Dail unless Dail population does not allow this at which point the present has the ability to make an executive decision to appoint a non ministerial citizen to the role.
5. The Defence minister must ensure that all military conduct complies with the legal and constitutional boundaries of the Tomann republic.
Under what conditions does the Dail membership not permit for a Dail-based Defense Minister?
Perhaps a clause indicating the duties in 3 require the consultation and consent of the Commander-in-Chief?
Quote:Article Three – Declarations of War.
1. The Parliament of Talamthom has the sole authority to declare by a two third majority vote.
2. In the event of a national emergency the president may deploy the armed forces without consent from parliament. In this event the President must provide a written report to the Dail within 48 hours of deployment. Where upon the Dail can decide to rescind the Presidents orders with a two-thirds majority vote.
Now we're getting into the need for a constitutional article enumerating the Dáil's specific powers.
Quote:Article Four – Recruitment.
1. The joining of the armed forces is strictly voluntary for all citizens over the age of 18.
2. All personnel of the Tomann armed forces must be citizens of the Republic of Talamthom for at least 30 days before appointment and recruitment unless otherwise authorised by the President or the Dail Tomann.
3. The armed forces are strictly prohibited from discriminating against any citizens application to join based on sex, sexual orientation, language, ethnicity, colour, marital status or political orientation.
What's the point of 2 if exemptions are so easy to get?
Quote:Article five – Military Bases.
1. It is the job of the Defence Minister to organise the locations of Military bases around Tomannach Territory in accordance with the needs of the General Staff and the wishes of the Dail Tomann.
Consent of the Dáil and President. Basically you're saying bases can only be opened by act of Parliament.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2417
(4/10/05 22:26)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
Alex. We have already come to the conclusion that the re-issue of this old piece of legislation was a bad idea on the Prime Ministers part. Unfortunately your breakdown analysis is therefore somewhat unrequired.
I have spoken in person to the PM and a separate plan will be started.
This will consist of any constitutional ammendments required, mainly reffering to the Commander in Chief being a key Presidential role.
Separately a piece of legislation will be proposed proclaiming the formation of the military and how it is to be run etc.
Simple really. This bill at present may as well be dumped.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2459
(11/10/05 9:06)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
As there has been no unanimous decision to dump this legislation it has to go to the polls under the 10-day rule. I strongly urge for a vote of NAY.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 2520
(21/10/05 19:26)
Re: DT2005-064 - Tománnach Military Act
This has failed after losing by one nay vote, by one Minister. A total of one minister voted. Guess who.
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