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Gaia Angel 
ezOP
Posts: 1862
(8/29/04 11:03 am)
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Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
Debate will end Sep 5th.
While the role of the ACLU is to ensure cilvil rights, many argue that it has been abused. Discuss weather it should be kept or disbanded.
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 828
(8/30/04 12:09 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
I can genuinely see both sides of this debate,quite clearly.However, I do have to side with the ACLU.Being Pagan,and having a daughter who wishes to at least find out what it means to be Wiccan,and living in the buckle of the Bible Belt,I have to make sure our religious freedoms are not violated.And even though this is the 21st century,there are still an amazing number of people out there who judge based on skin color,instead of how a person acts,and what's in a persons heart.And since the color of my husbands skin happens to be several shades of brown darker than mine,and our children are rather golden,with curly hair(except the youngest,who looks like he walked off of a Reservation),I have had to rely on the phrase"Fine,then,just wait til I call the ACLU about this.",to get results,when some have sought to deny us service,or have ignored us completely,in favor of more"acceptable" customers.
I do believe that this country has become far too politically correct for it's own good,though.The amount of double-speak going on here would make George Orwell throw up.And the ACLU is almost as responsible for that as the government is.We cannot call a handicapped person handicapped-they are disabled,or differently-abled.The blind aren't blind,they are seeing impaired.Come on,for crying out loud,it's like the t-shirt that says"I'm not short,I'm vertically challenged".Puhleeze.If you're short,you're short.I weigh about 200 lbs right now,I'm fat-period.No I don't have a weight problem,and no,I'm not "just a little on the heavy side".We need to get over this beat around the bush,politically correct bullshit,and tell it like it is.And the ACLU needs to stop suing people for telling it like it is.They need to defend peoples rights,yes.But defending civil rights,and speaking the truth are two separate issues.
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Gaia Angel
ezOP
Posts: 1879
(8/30/04 4:53 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
Quote:
I'm not short,I'm vertically challenged
No fair thats me!
Ok, shad took the pro...any hard nosed cons? Has the aclu passed its prime and is no longer necessary?
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wolfscout1
Path Walker
Posts: 173
(8/30/04 11:14 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
my opinion only --
The aclu is past it's tiem.
as long as people know that there is a distiction being made say between race or color then they will continue to make these distinctions.
The aclu is actually enouraging the very things they fight against by the methods and tactics they currently use.
I'm not saying they don't do good but it's equally bad.
So if it's equally both then it's not useful anymore for it's intended purpose.
again IMO.
~~~
OWP ,
Larry's Place
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Gaia Angel
ezOP
Posts: 1899
(8/30/04 4:48 pm)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
Fair words wolf....shad a rebuttal?
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 830
(8/31/04 12:25 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
Sorry,still having virus problems,so I may be in and out sporadically.
Ok,back to the debate at hand.
Unfortunately,we still have a lot of people out there who think and act like this is the stone age.Without an organization like the ACLU,who can act on the behalf of those who are victimized by those who still stomp on the rights of others because of thier skin color,or what they believe,I'm afraid there are some who would still find themselves horribly taken advantage of.I, myself have lived in towns where some of the public transportation,and buildings were not handicap accessible,until the ACLU stepped in,and forced them to put in ramps, and make the busses accessable.
Sometimes even the threat of calling the ACLU is enough to make some of those guilty of taking advantage of the "little guy" think twice.
Every day in this country,we're losing more and more of our rights and liberties.Without someone who can at least try to help us stand up,and fight to keep the ones we have left,we could very well end up with no rights at all.If that happens,the ACLU may be the only hope some people are going to have.
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wolfscout1
Path Walker
Posts: 180
(8/31/04 3:54 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
I can see what you are saying on the ACLU doing those things.
But what of the other things they do which harm more than the fix.
The original intent of the organisation is to create equal opportunity, fairness and prevent the victimization of others. But i see an organisation which carries things to far, breeds the very same differences they report to want to end, increase the pressure from outside loacl areas to handle thier own problems. In a way it's like they've become too big for their britches. They often choose the wrong battles for the wrong reasons. sometimes it's ended up just for a media show without getting anything done. I see thier effectiveness as sliding down hill.
They often only push for the one side of a situation or do nothing at all. again, I see the goal is for media attention on things. They like to jump on bandwagons only to get off before some things get really heated.
In their effort to be fair, they've pushed and bulled their wayinto things they should stay out of , I'm trying to think of an example but it is very late and i have not slept all night agian. But when i think of one or some i will edit this post for you Shade.
OK, take for example the flag issue that they started in SC.
They wanted it off the Dome. They got that but the compromise put it on the captiol grounds. Which was actually a more of "in your face" situation . they liked that even owrse so the began a black Boycott of SC.
this lead to many black groups and organisatios not wanting to come here for economic reasons. But when the black populaiton began to suffer , thsoe who made thier living from tourism and such, they backed off. oh they still piss and moan about what they want but people now realise that they dont' truly think ahead with their actions ... and ramifications.
~~~
OWP ,
Larry's Place
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 833
(8/31/04 3:41 pm)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
Well, Wolfscout,as far as the flag in question,that the ACLU got taken down from the top of the courthouse in SC,I'm in total agreement with them that it needed to.Yes,I'm aware of every side of the argument,both for and against that particular flag.I was raised in a home that was proud of that flag.And I was taught that if anyone ever asked,that flag only represented my pride in being from the south,nothing more.But it went much deeper than that.Just ask my husband what that flag means to him.He was born and raised in the south,as well.He wanted to be an astronaut,and he had the intelligence to do it.But he was taught from an early age that,"'Son,they aint gonna let no nigger go into space."He was taught that,that flag meant he was never going to be given the opportunities that someone with lighter skin would be.As long as that flag was allowed to fly,the real American flag was useless in it's meaning that ALL men were created equal.
The ACLU made sure that equality won out in that one.
Edited by: shadeaux63 at: 8/31/04 9:32 pm
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wolfscout1
Path Walker
Posts: 184
(8/31/04 5:39 pm)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
well, we'll have to disagree on that one - the flag issue coming down or not. ~~~~
But the ACLU handled it wrong and continues to.
~~~
And what would the ACLU do if there was a petition for a holiday for caucasion ancesty?
or Wiccan holidays to be federally recognized?
or Native Americans to have the things that were signed for?
They wish to pick and choose what to fight for.
This is where the invalidation of the organization comes in.
~~
And the American flag has not represented 3/4 of the country in 140+ years. but i'll stop on that one.
peace Shade. LOL
~~~
OWP ,
Larry's Place
Edited by: wolfscout1 at: 8/31/04 5:40 pm
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starwind123 
Goddess of the arts
Posts: 590
(9/2/04 4:08 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
Like all good things, there is a pedualum swing.. from doing good to doing too much just because they can... most social change happens so... from no ones doing anything... to all the way the other way where they do too damn much... and it all tends to fall down to a nice medium norm eventualy.. it takes the radical shift often to bring the whole need for the concept to the mind of the average Joe if for no other reason than because they ARE going too far.. but there is always a check and balance to such behavior.. I dont think its possible TOO change it as it seems to be the way we humand make any kind of social change...
my two cents
Starwind
Blessings on your coming
Blessings on your going
Blessings on all your house |
wolfscout1 
Path Walker
Posts: 191
(9/2/04 6:03 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
i was going to but never mind. LOL
~~~
OWP ,
Larry's Place
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 850
(9/2/04 9:32 am)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
I wholeheartedly agree,Esta.And since,statistically,I'm classified in not one,but several groups of people who usually come out on the short end of the stick as far as rights go(non-Christian,inter-racial marriage/with mixed race children,disabled,and a few others as well),I guess it stands to reason that I prefer to have an organization like the ACLU in business,because the likelihood that one day I,or my children, will need them is very high.
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Akuma Kijin
Defender Beast and Fowl
Posts: 86
(9/2/04 7:22 pm)
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Re: Debate #1: ACLU: Solving problems or making them?
Wish we had somthing like that up here. Honestly if I could have some action brought to the racism I see every day big or small I would be very greatful. But in our school system they only pretened to care about racisim. Honestly if the Aclu is doing anything at all to help the little guy, more power to em. and I say keep them around.
~Sam
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