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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 904
(9/17/04 12:30 am)
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Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
It seems to some that the government just can't get enough of interfering in peoples private lives.With the gay marriage issue,many states want to re-enact anti-sodomy laws.One state has banned the sale of certain marital aids(vibrators).There are anti-pornography laws in many places,making it illegal to so much as rent an X-rated video to watch in the privacy of your own home.
Do you think the government has the right to tell people what they can,or cannot,do in the privacy of thier own home?Or are they wasting time,money,and thier breath,trying to regulate people to death?
Feel free to take this one beyond just the subjects mentioned,by the way.If you have other examples of government interferance in our lives,go for it.
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Gaia Angel 
ezOP
Posts: 2139
(9/17/04 5:23 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Quote:
One state has banned the sale of certain marital aids(vibrators)
No I dont and the above interferes with my basic freedom in the pursuit of happiness. (like yall didnt know I would be ALL over banned Vibrators!) Obviouslt govronment to some level is a necessity, however to the scale it has been the last few years? No. this goveronment administration has invited itself into our marriage, our mental health, and several other branches of notmal, everyday nonmilitary involved life. Our basic fredoms are being encroached upon and because Duhbya is such a down home kinda guy, it is being overlooked and that iritates me to no end,
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 906
(9/17/04 5:43 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Something told me you would be the first to respond,Gaia.
Anyone out there want to take the other side of this one?
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1hillclimber
Global User
Posts: 287
(9/17/04 9:20 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Aw, now, come on, Shad...you KNOW you don't want me goin' there!!!!! The best that could happen to me is that I'd be cut off from the 'net...the worst is that I'd be spending the wedding weekend in jail!!!
HC
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1hillclimber
Global User
Posts: 288
(9/17/04 9:21 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
And don't worry, G-Angel...we're okay until they investigate us for buying BATTERIES!!!
HC
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1hillclimber
Global User
Posts: 289
(9/17/04 9:25 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Can you see it? A new generation of "Smokey and the Bandit" movies...where a "mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore" American housewife runs a load of contraband "C" batteries across state lines...
BWAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha!
HC
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 912
(9/18/04 12:28 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
 she went there!!!!
Gee,it doesn't look like anyone even wants to play devils advocate on this topic.Anyone?
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Gaia Angel
ezOP
Posts: 2142
(9/19/04 10:18 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Quote:
Psst its me, dave, I got the stuff let me in! ~cheech and chong
Now how the hell do you validate banning sex toys??? come ON!
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 919
(9/19/04 11:03 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
"Dave's not here,Man."~ Tommy Chong
Well, it isn't so much the sex toys,as how many laws there are regulating our private lives.The sex toys thing was just one example.Some would argue that seat belt laws,helmet laws(for motorcycles),even bans on certain types of pets,in some places,are just too much government telling us what we can and cannot do.
Others would say we need these laws,to protect us (from what?Ourselves I guess),and without them,there would be chaos.Some would say that they couldn't care less,one way or another.
I figured someone would pop in and at least take the position that SOME of these laws are necessary.I guess I was wrong.
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earthnann
Child of the ancient schools
Posts: 94
(9/20/04 10:14 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Okay, I would say it's the concept that rules are made for those who refuse to control themselves by those who are tired of having to mop up after them. Helmet laws keep the taxes down by lowering the number of emergency services required, the number of tax-funded long-term care facilities for the permanently brain damaged. (You may have the right to ride free, but you don’t have the right to make me pay for you for the rest of your life because you smashed your skull and instead of dying ended up living another 50 years in a vegetative state, your family has no money and can’t take care of you, you are underinsured and you don’t live in place that practices euthanasia. Makes more sense to have a helmet law.) Fishing off the bridge is against the law because the community can’t afford to send first responder folk running every time somebody does something stupid up there. Many such decisions are also based on lawsuits – your kid falls off the bridge or steps out into traffic, chances are you’re gonna sue the city for not making it illegal to fish off the bridge.
Bans on certain kinds of pets – captive wild animals spread disease and cause problems for humans in other ways, but more importantly, such bans protect the animals from idiot humans who think they know what they’re doing. The fewer people keeping exotic or wild pets, the fewer poachers/traffickers, the less impact on what’s left of the wild places on our planet, and who knows, might even encourage a bit more respect for nonhuman ecosystems. Bans on emptying your toilet into the river keep it safer for all the life forms using the river. And so on.
Unfortunately, such a system can be taken advantage of in many ways by extreme folks. This administration, for example, doesn't believe that people deserve the right to govern themselves and are capable of doing so in reasonable, rational ways. This administration is full of folk who either think they know what's best for the rest of us, or feel threatened and insecure when the rest of us don't think and act just like them.
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Gaia Angel
ezOP
Posts: 2162
(9/20/04 2:52 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Ok, I understand the ban on certain types of pets...I have a friends whos son brought home a Kamen (sp?) whos nasty temper cost him a few fingers. These animals were never meant to partner with humans in any way and are not equipped to handle human type solization. I even understand forcing parents to buckle your kids up, someone needs to taske responsibility untill they can conciously choose and to many were not doing that. however, no MATTER the cost you have NO right to tell me what to do...I consisder it an insult to my intelligence by forcing your idea of "right" on me! Here is a little bit of news: My husband refuses to wear his seat belt...we are on like ticket 200 for him NOT buckling up. Why? I buckle up, my kids buckle up, I even buckle in the pet carrriers...why do I not try to force him? Because His best friend Lost his life at age 18 in a car accident...when an oh so protective seat beat crushed his trachea and caused a rare form of whiplash. Paul has been manically opposed to them ever sense... yet the govt will tell you you your kids your loved ones your all PERFECTLY safe in a seat belt...but there is a percentage of people who die every year from USING seat belts. I dont agree that NOT using them is the way to go...hoiwever I DO agree he has the right to his belief and his idea of what is safest to him.
NOW....Helmets. This is a very sore point in my home. Husband used to ride...we still have many mutual friends who do and several are no longer in this plane as who we knew them BECAUSE of restrictions. Kentucky for a while was the only state to have both seat belt and helmet restrictions. Their forced restrictions on bikers to wear helmets (which was passed into law because of weekend wannabes) costed the lives of several thousand bikers who, because for them it was a way of life NOT a hobby, refused to follow restrictions. Ok, they made the concious choice to loose the helmet...but these men and women (who incidently spend 3 times more road time on their hogs as hobbiyist) ALWAYS wore their helmets before. Forced restriction costed lives any way you want to look at it because some people would rather die then live a restricted life. Again, I didnt agree but I did listen to their ideas of right and wrong and for them restrictions on their "safty" was their call, noone elses. And for the record more wannabes er um hobbyist are mopped up even now that the restrictions are lifted then "Bikers".
What are you going to do next?
ban me from backpacking because me being a soloist I am out in the woods at risk for thousands of injuries...if i get snake bit oh my just think of the cost to my insurance! or fall from a cliff! My point is....where it starts with one dangerous behavior is doesent neccessarily end. The govt is inviting itself into my bedroom, my hobbies and (trying) to get into my mental health! all in the name of the good of the people.
The Christian crusades are one example of horrors inflicted on masses of people in the name of the "good Of the people"
Watch, "at risk" behavior will eventually be culed out and dont even try to full yourself that it is because of the cost to the ameerican people....because quite frankly we spend three times more on freaking limos for ambassedors, ex congressmans mothers and presidentel git then we EVER will on accident victims. Want your tax dollars to go somewhere better? How about demanding a pay cut for congress? putting spending restrictions on our prez. or capping off what our politions are allowed to charge to expense accounts...and make it more damned resonable. (Come on! a $500 toilet seat??? NOONES ass is that damn valueable!)
I Look at the ACTUAL cost versus potential costs as well as the cost to my frieedom.
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shadeaux63
Keeper of dreams
Posts: 923
(9/21/04 1:13 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Well said,both of you.
Any comebacks? 
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earthnann
Child of the ancient schools
Posts: 95
(9/21/04 9:58 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
I am one who survived an accident that would have killed me if I had been belted. I was 4 and in the back seat with my younger bro. We were stopped, signaling to make a left-hand turn, and were slammed into from behind by a drunk driver with such force that the back seat was pushed into the front seat. Had we been belted, we would have been crushed. Because we were not belted, we flew up in the air and landed in a tiny pocket of space above the seat back.
I still always wear my seatbelt because, despite my experience, I agree with the government that the odds are that a seatbelt will keep me safer. More importantly, I am one who chooses my battles very carefully, and this is a law I do not mind complying with. And as a side note, many of my biker family/friends wore helmets when we had such a law because, while they disagreed with it, they didn’t want the hassle of being stopped. They pick their battles carefully as well. One of their battles was legally fighting the helmet law, and ours was eventually repealed.
In discussions such as this one, I hear a lot about “rights” and very little about “responsibilities”. The drunk driver without insurance who hit us didn’t think the government had the right to tell him what to do, either. The most important thing I teach my children is that we are all responsible for our own actions. I choose to live in a society with laws. I choose which laws to follow. I choose which laws to ignore, and with that choice comes awareness of the consequences, which I accept if I get caught (like speeding, for which I’ve received a couple tickets in my time). I also choose which laws to fight. It is not easy to get rules/laws changed, but I’ve helped in successful efforts in that regard, and continue to fight on others. It’s part of why I choose to live in a country that allows a certain amount of citizen interactiveness with government – I can have a say if I so choose.
The reason we have most of these laws is because someone felt strongly enough about an issue to work to make it so. You also can put your energy into changing or making laws on issues of importance to you, just like the biker folk in my state did, just as I do. It's one of your rights.
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sgrmtndrone
New Student/Teachers Apprentice
Posts: 19
(9/22/04 5:29 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Helmet laws : These are mostly propaganda , Tho in some cases they have saved a riders life ( the helmet itself has caused severe spinal damage ), For the most part it is these one's that are costing the most in health care . It should be riders choice ! We have a helmet law in Mo. & it sucks !!! I am a member of Freedom of the road riders as well as B.A.M. & The Harley owners group . "Loud Pipes save lives"
"Let those that ride decide" Just my 2 cents !
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Gaia Angel
ezOP
Posts: 2169
(9/22/04 9:09 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Drone I think id kiss ya if I wasnt sure bee would kick my ass
Nan...the point is it is HIS choice. he has deep seeded personal reasons to make that choice, ones which he feels very strongly about...and his life is the only one he is putting at risk...not yours, not mine. im sorry, but in terms of my (or yours or his) freedoms...In my honest opinon your tax dollars are not my concern, WE pay taxes to...whos tax dollares become more important? Um, personally, I beleive neither.
How is a sober driver (or passenger for that matter) endangering your life by not belting up? The one does NOT equate with the other, nor do either have bearings upon each other. "Your rights end where mine begin"...and me not wearing a seatbelt is NOT affecting your right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness...However by taking away the right to choose, my RIGHTS (which like or not IS the corner stone of american society) are violated.
Were I drunk...then I absoloutely would be jeoperdizing your rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness...as a matter of fact I WHOLEHEARTEDLY support attempted murder charges for drunk drivers involved in car accidents.
Seat belts, helmets, my dildos...you, the govt, not even my HUSBAND has a right to tell me how to choose...and it has to be a choice.
As for helmets...I spoke from experiance with those I know as do you. I am very glad to see it repealed in my state and my friends allowed to do what adults are supposed to do...Chart their own course and make their own choice.
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sgrmtndrone
New Student/Teachers Apprentice
Posts: 20
(9/22/04 7:40 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
They do let you get by with one of the novelty helmets without hassling ya here at least . I lived in Iowa several years and loved being able to ride without a helmet ! That and Pheasant hunting are the things I miss most about returning home lol .
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1hillclimber
Global User
Posts: 296
(9/22/04 8:11 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
I've read some really interesting points here...good debate.
Here's my only 2-cents-worth:
1) nothing is EVER, ever that cut and dried, period. Example: "...you do not have the right to make me pay..." something or other about having a wreck while being drunk and living through the ordeal in a vegetative state. For the most part I would agree with that, HOWEVER, it was not the drunk rider's choice that made ANYONE pay. It was the do-gooders who decided that there needs to be a law put there in the first place! GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE!!! IF there weren't tons of people out there looking for dollars and insurance companies lobbying for the laws to save them big bucks on claims, would we still have the interference? Probably...but we might have a few different laws.
2) Everyone picks his/her own battles and hopefully we put our energies where they will do the most good. But what about laws, or lack of laws that the gov't and special interest groups manage to keep "under wraps" or won't touch with a 10-foot pole? Example: Did you know that one of the torch phrases in the 90's and now is "Grandparents' Rights?" GUESS WHAT, FOLKS...There ARE NONE. It is a BLATANT LIE. It is a SCAM. It was on the news not too long ago..."blah blah blah blah law is passed...tune in to see how this might affect your grandparents' rights." Okay, the station probably got the ratings, I sure watched it. Bottom line...THERE ARE NO GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS. To translate from legalese: it is the right of the child to see the grandparent IF it can be determined that keeping said child from grandparent is detrimental to the CHILD. Good luck determining that. Let's see, it's a great living for the lawyers. Oh, well, that's gonna cost a lot of money. That'll be $2000 up front, and even then, we will probably lose. Well, try talking to the State and local representatives. I was told, there's no point in trying to pursue this one until the current administration is gone...they don't care about it and won't do anything about it." Thanks so much. Now that's a situation that gets very, very little press, and when it is mentioned, it is hyped up that there ARE protections for us, when there ARE NONE. How's that for a reversal?
Just my 2-cents-worth...
HC
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earthnann
Child of the ancient schools
Posts: 95
(9/23/04 1:19 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Gaia – I did not argue the point about it being his choice. I believe I stated quite clearly we all make our choices. If we choose to live in a society that has laws, we can choose to follow them, ignore them, work to change them. I did not say anyone is endangering my life by not belting up. As for my tax dollars not being your concern, it’s OUR tax dollars, and how they are utilized should be the concern of all of us.
Drone – pheasants – YUM!
Hillclimber - You’re correct, there are no “grandparents rights”. What there is, is a relatively new body of laws (in the last 25 years or so) to deal with the problems surrounding broken families that as a whole is often referred to as “grandparents rights” laws because those issues were taken into the court system by frustrated grandparents seeking to continue relationships with grandchildren after a break-up of their offspring. It’s heartbreaking when folk divorce or separate and extend that separation to everybody on the other party’s side of the family. When people can’t come together and cooperate to solve their problems, they often look to the court system, but it is seldom able to resolve such difficulties to the satisfaction of both sides. The only clear direction the courts have to follow is the “best interests of the child” which is often too subjective. I don’t know what your situation is, but it sounds like you’re having a hard time. I am so sorry – best wishes.
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Sugar Mtn Honeybee
Given a Place at the table
Posts: 35
(9/23/04 1:21 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Here's a tidbit on motorcycle helmets for you. One of our sons, at age 12 1/2, took a ride on the back of a friend's motorcycle. It was only a 1.5 mile ride, but the cost of that ride was tremendous. The friend was 42 years old and had been riding for most of his life. He had a living room full of trophies for motocross & motorcycles, so he was very experienced. He was also driving slow. It was a Sunday afternoon, a fine day, and we were on our way home from the swimming hole. No need to hurry, and the kid was enjoying the ride. As an adult, our friend chose to hang his helmet on the handlebars. As our son was a child, I made him wear the helmet (and our friend enforced this). I also made him wear long pants (jeans) and a shirt, where he would have gone in nothing but his swim trunks.
There was a pickup truck going the opposite direction, towing a boat, and driving over the center line. We were about 5 minutes ahead of the motorcycle in our small car and were almost run off the road by the same pickup just minutes before. The drivers side mirror on the pickup hit our adult friend in the face, causing him to run off the road into the ditch on the bike. It also took his left ear off his head. Our son had stitches in his left temple & left hand, which he had raised to shield his face. Our friend kept the motorcycle upright in the ditch for several hundred feet, until the front tire hit a large rock, flipping the motorcycle. Terry (our friend) was thrown from the motorcycle & through the air, and landed hitting his head on another large rock. His skull was crushed, his neck was broken, and he died instantly. Our son held on to the bike, which landed on top of him.
Apparently, the pickup stopped, and the occupants believed that both were dead. The pickup left. There were 2 young men left at the scene with no vehicle. They believed both of the motorcycle occupants were dead, until my son came to screaming, "Look out, look out for the truck!" Having had his helmet on, he was still alive. He was not fully conscious or coherent. His head had also hit a large rock, hit so hard that the rivets were popped out of the helmet. The helmet kept his skull from being crushed, but it also caused his neck to be fractured in 2 places, and he still ended up with a basalar skull fracture. He had road rash that he still has scars from on his back and butt. He also had stitches in several places, broke his nose, and fractured his facial sinus bones & frontal sinus bones.
Once the young men realized our son was alive, they flagged down a passing vehicle and asked them to go call an ambulance. They also claimed no knowledge of the pickup truck. I have never believed that. They stated to the police that a friend had dropped them off there to take his children home. The friend came back in a car. They also told the police that Terry was racing with another motorcycle. The other motorcycle was also driven by friends of ours who didn't leave the swimming hole until 15 minutes after Terry left because their bike refused to start. They saw no signs of the bike on their way home, but they did see the 2 young men sitting at the top of the ditch. Neighbors later found the side mirror of that pickup in the ditch, but the highway patrol didn't even look for the pickup or the hit-and-run driver. They were so wrapped up in the story of the "racing motorcycles", they never bothered to look into it any further. Our son would not relate the story of the pickup for days, yet semi-awoke from nightmares in the ICU screaming, "Look out, look out for the pickup truck!" after they took him off the respirator. He was life-flighted over 100 miles to the University Hospital.
He was in a coma in the pediatric intensive care unit for 5 days, then spent weeks in a head & spinal injury rehab center. His recovery was long, frustrating, & tedious. He ended up having 2 fusion surgeries on his neck and spending time in a halo device and almost 2 years in a neck brace -- 2 years where he could not engage in the normal activities of a kid his age. MY health insurance through my job paid for all of that. Terry's son was eligible for dependent's benefits.. paid from what Terry had paid in to Social Security during his lifetime. His funeral was paid for by his estate. The driver of the pickup never paid anything and basically got off scott-free, because they never even looked for him, never even looked at the side mirror found by the neighbors -- I have always believed in my heart that the driver ran because he had been drinking -- because It was obvious that the young men by the road had been. I believed then & still believe that the young men were both passengers in that pickup truck and that they just didn't want to see their friend, the driver of the pickup, go to jail for drunk driving or hit & run.
But that driver will always know in his heart that he was responsible for the death of a man and the permanent disability of a child, now grown to a man. He has traumatic brain injury syndrome and lost 30 IQ points after the accident. Fortunately, he had a very high IQ to start with, or he would now be classified as mentally retarded.
Do I believe in mandatory helmet laws for adults? Nope. I believe that adults should have the right to choose for themselves. I choose to wear a helmet, plus long pants, plus leathers when riding -- but I don't believe my choices should be forced on other adults. I believe that children should wear helmets, Children should wear seatbelts, be restrained in car seats, and ride in the back seat. (Amazing that schoolbuses are not required to have seatbelts or car seats, isn't it?) Adults should have the right to choose. Drunk drivers who hurt or kill someone else should go to prison. Just my opinions, but I am still entitled to those in this country (so far, anyway).
And, by the way, Gaia, I have not kicked anyone's ass for years!
Sugar Mountain /
The Dance |
Gaia Angel
ezOP
Posts: 2172
(9/24/04 8:42 am)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
Quote:
And, by the way, Gaia, I have not kicked anyone's ass for years!
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wolfscout1 
Path Walker
Posts: 205
(9/24/04 10:05 pm)
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Re: Debate #2 -- government interferance in our lives
oo ooo OOO , I keep wanting to hop in on this one but I'd flame the .gov so bad Gaia would ban me.
Which party had been in control of the .gov the longest in the last 40+ years the democrats. who do i blame for the mess we in == both darn stupid parties.
what we need is a total rehashing of the way we let these people get in office and how long they can stay so they are more responsive to the people and not to big business.
Big business is the driving force behind .gov.
Don't ever think otherwise until we get the needed changes.
And both parties should be done away with asap.
don't know who can take their place, but they're so much alike when elected, it ain't worth worrying about so they are equally bad no matter who you like today or last year.
~~~
My Path , Temple of Onenss , OWP ,
Larry's Place
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