Melitta Registered Member
Posts: 4
(8/16/05 11:00 am) Reply
Did he mean to do it? (whole book spoilers)
Did Dumbledore mean to die? I believe so.
As I said in another thread, I've been rewatching the films. Last night, I saw part of "The Prisoner of Azkaban" and saw something really significant!
During the Quidditch match, Harry falls off his broom after being buzzed by the Dementors. He's knocked unconscious and is heading for the ground. Dumbledore sees this, raises his HAND (not his wand), speaks a few words, and slows Harry's momentum so he's not injured by the fall. I have not checked the book, so I don't know offhand if it happened exactly the same way there.
Jump to the scene on the tower in "Half-Blood Prince." Dumbledore's wand is knocked out of his reach. Snape knocks Dumbledore off the tower next. I refuse to believe a wizard of Dumbledore's caliber couldn't have saved himself. He could have used the same spell he used on Harry--we saw he could do it!
I'm convinced there was a plan, but it may not have been carried out completely.
Another thing that I found that impressed me was in the very first scene of "Sorcerer's Stone." When McGonagall and Dumbledore meet outside the Dursley home, McGonagall asks Dumbledore where baby Harry is. Dumbledore responds that Hagrid is bringing him. McGonagall questions whether it's wise to trust Hagrid with something so important. Dumbledore replies, "I'd trust Hagrid with my life." (The book renders the sentence as "I would trust Hagrid with my life." I checked.)
Okay. So, who first touched Dumbledore's body and moved it after he was tossed off the tower? Hagrid. Who carried Dumbledore's body to its final resting place? Hagrid.
Suppose Dumbledore really is trusting Hagrid with what's left of his "life"? Hagrid isn't the greatest actor, so he may not have all the details. Either that, or the plan didn't unfold as it was intended to happen.
Who else thinks I'm obsessed? Edited by: Melitta at: 8/17/05 5:27 am
obsessed...but
not in a crazy way.
Posts: 64
(8/16/05 7:20 pm) Reply
Re: Did he mean to do it? (whole book spoilers)
The POA scene was only in the movie. In the book, Dumbledore uses his wand to slow Harry down and then drive off the dementors. They changed it totally from the book, much as they do so many things.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to!
Tracking 10lbs loss at a time
Melitta Registered Member
Posts: 5
(8/17/05 5:31 am) Reply
Re: Did he mean to do it? (whole book spoilers)
Hi, rhbrand! I like that the title under your name actually answers my last question!
I checked my copy of PoA last night, and you're right in that the scene didn't unfold in the book exactly as it did in the movie. However, in the book, when Harry wakes up later in the hospital wing, Hermione tells him that Dumbledore ran out onto the quidditch pitch when he saw Harry falling, waved his HAND around and slowed Harry's fall. So, even there, Dumbledore used his hand rather than his wand.
I stand by my conclusion, that Dumbledore could have saved himself, even without his wand.
obsessed...but
not in a crazy way.
Posts: 65
(8/17/05 6:18 am) Reply
Re: Did he mean to do it? (whole book spoilers)
I'd still be Hermione didn't see the wand. I'd bet she was a little to worried about Harry to really notice what was going on. That's why people do make terrible witnesses in trials. They are not sure what they really see.
But still, I'm sure DD meant to die. DD was pretty on top of most things, and had enough time to stun Harry. He could have easily stunned Draco instead leaving Harry to hid. Heck, he could have stunned Draco, and left the tower before anyone else got there. But instead, he stunned Harry and let Draco take his wand. DD probably could have walked right up to Draco and just taken his wand back by hand.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to!
Tracking 10lbs loss at a time
ejeana Registered Member
Posts: 102
(8/17/05 9:12 am) Reply
Re: Did he mean to do it? (whole book spoilers)
I agree with both of you--Dumbledore is repeatedly said to be the greatest magician of all time, so I don't know that he was *really* in over his head--I think he could have done something if he had wanted to.
As for the wand, I also don't think DD truly needed it. Harry makes things happen before he even comes to Hogwarts just by willing it...his hair growing out right after Aunt Petunia cuts it, getting to the top of a building somehow when Dudley is trying to beat him up, making the glass dissappear at the zoo. Tom Riddle is shown to have also done rather impressive things without a wand before he learns he is a wizard.
I am sure Dumledore can easily cast without a wand. One thing the students start learning in this book is how to cast without speaking the enchantment, which is a difficult thing for most of them to get. Perhaps consciously casting spells (as opposed to not really knowing what you're doing) without the wand, is the next step, an even more advanced way to cast.
As far as the scene on top of the tower with Draco, reading what Melitta and Rhbrand wrote made me think perhaps even if he didn't mean to have his wand knocked out of his hand by Draco's spell, perhaps once DD realized it was Draco he saw that there was an advantage to the way things worked out.
DD is trying to get Draco to realize he's not really a killer, to turn from Voldemort. It's better for Draco if he doesn't kill DD because he realizes that he, Draco, is not a murderer, than if he doesn't kill DD because his plan is foiled. DD not having his wand allows Draco to feel a bit more in control of his decision, allows him to at least glimpse the possibility that he could really have to make that decision and not just talk about it or think about it. Obviously Draco knows he's no match for DD head on in a fair fight.
I think DD still meant to die though in order to save Snape. Unless Snape just casting the spell to kill him is enough to satisfy the curse, even if DD doesn't die? but then his picture has appeared, the head office opens to McGonagall, and Fawkes takes off.
LadyCadagon Registered Member
Posts: 166
(8/17/05 11:12 am) Reply
Re: Did he mean to do it? (whole book spoilers)
I don't have a doubt that DD was able to perform wandless magic without fault. He was probably of a few who could. I agree with ejeana that DD at that moment saw an opportunity to save Draco from the dark side of the force (whoops wrong story ). I also believe that DD was drained at that moment. He couldn't even if he tried to perform wandless magic. He could barely stand and he had just made Harry frozen which probably drained him even more. I bet that he was really weak at that moment.
I had read on other forums that to perform wandless magic right would probably require alot of power. Which means probably only the best of the best was able to do it. Also that the wand is a tool for magic to be channeled through. So people who aren't as powerful probably aren't able to cast wandless magic or if they do it goes all awry; but I don't know JK's mind and I can't remember where I had read this, but it makes sense to me.
Melitta Registered Member
Posts: 13
(8/29/05 5:56 am) Reply
Re: Did he mean to do it? (whole book spoilers)
Would you guys believe I posted this question BEFORE I saw the interview with Rowling herself that's linked on the Mugglenet site? The two interviewers asked her this exact question--did Dumbledore mean to die? Rowling kind of sidestepped around the issue.
At the moment, I'm positive there was a plan. I'm NOT sure it was carried out exactly the way it was supposed to be done, though. Dumbledore had apparently been following Draco's activities all term, somehow. I don't know if it was just good luck for the bad guys that Draco fixed his magic cabinet just when Dumbledore left and came back weak. I mean, how would Draco know where Dumbledore had gone? Maybe the timing was just coincidental.
Edited by: 
). I also believe that DD was drained at that moment. He couldn't even if he tried to perform wandless magic. He could barely stand and he had just made Harry frozen which probably drained him even more. I bet that he was really weak at that moment.
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