Does Evil exist? (IPT)
This has a thought provoking message no matter how you believe.
Does evil exist?
The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?
A student bravely replied yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes, sir," the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer.
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does".
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
Forum Emperor!(Balkan Papa)
Posts: 5848
(10/2/07 5:28 am)
Re: Does Evil exist?
Three subjects, lets approach them factually
1) Cold (as apsence of Heat)
Q: Can it be measured and is it of universal value, meaning of static value that hold true at all times?
Cold is emotion based assumption as what exactly is the universal point where hot stops and cold begins or is it judged according to what humanity has agreed to be the standard. From a more scientific viewpoint cold can certainly be measured as well as heat. Now lets regard the absence of heat part. Heat can also, according to this, be judged as absence of cold. In fact it can be argued that it is heat that has a conditional value as it obviously would depend on a burning fuel as a source to such heat. Certainly such burning fuel would be (even stars) temporary in nature and this would make heat temporary in nature. Now how could this make any relevant standard. Heat to exist, being conditional, can not be viewed as a standard. Cold on the other hand is existing on its own without interference of outside elements thus appear static.
3) Darkness (apsence of Light)
Q: Can it be measured and is it of universal value, meaning of static value that hold true at all times?
Pure darkness is a point where black color prevails in its pure form and if black color can be measured then it does exist. But is is false assumption as it is judged by our faulty human senses which are inept to reflect light in the dark the way a cat does. Thus darkness for a cat and for a human are of two different values. Thus rather subjective by nature. The real relationship (it could be argued) between light and darkness is exactly the same as it is between cold and heat. Light is directly dependent on heat as in darkness for the lack of it. Heat being of conditional value makes light the same while darkness appears on its own when there is no interference of light. Will there always be light in the cosmos? Not according to scientists who state some time in the future (dozens of billions of years from now) all the stars (in essence same as extremely slow burning particles that will burn out eventually) will cease to emit any light due to fire within them finally becoming extinguished due to fuel exhaustion. What will prevail afterwards unabated, darkness of course.
3) Evil ( absence of God)
Q: Can it be measured and is it of universal value, meaning of static value that hold true at all times?
Evil not only can not be measured but there is not even a consensus as far as what constitutes it or what makes something evil. First what does absence of God means. If God (lets analyze first faulty Abrahamic approach) means perfection then wouldn't lack of evil make it imperfect or lacking of. Second how do we even conceive what something so complex as an eternal being (if in existence and from our standpoint) we call God contains within its essence. Us, talking monkeys that we are, have natural arrogance and fear of unknown that helps us name the unknown and attempt to give it quality. But by doing so doesn't make it valid any more then it makes Miskey Mouse alive. Also what is to say that our perception of evil and that of God are even in the same league. Certainly if advanced alien beings would suddenly appear on our scene they might easily regard humans as evil. Materialistic, selfish by nature, destructive towards natural environment and even self-destructive (inter human wars reminiscent of close genetic cousins to humans and likely their ancestors such as emotionally unstable - CHIMPS) and thus ultimately dangerous. Such intellectually and scientifically advanced culture might regard it as good to wipe out a specie as it might improve nature and save countless animal and plant species. Certainly pure logic would not go counter to such an assumption. But humans do not use logic when referring to the imagined term such as 'evil' as such alien act would be destructive towards them. Now if aliens would have such a contrast in what constitutes evil (if they were using logic that is) certainly something so drastically different from us in every conceivable way would not even have such concept as existing for the simple reason that human perception of evil is what endangers us on a personal level and good is what benefits us on a personal level. For one that can not be endangered evil is a non issue.
_________
Less Balkanian Dogmatic Paranoia. More Rational Ancient Hellenic Wisdom.
Re: Does Evil exist?
Let's put some more questions and see how good science is to explain things.
1. Love: can you measure it or explain it by scientific methods. No. Does it mean it doesn't exist? By your logic it doesn't.
2. Thought: can you measure it and explain what is its nature by scientific methods? Is it reproducible? No, thus it doesn't exist.
3. Good: can you measure it and explain it in reproducible way? No. It doesn't exist.
4. Bad: doesn't exist.
5. Happiness: can you measure it by scientific methods and reproduce it? No, it doesn't exist.
6. Misery: it can't be measured.
7. Hope: please , it doesn' t exist.
Probably, this is enough. Since all of those thing don't exist by the science we should forget about them. May be you can, but I cant. It is a personal choice.
The science explains the structure and properties of matter in relation to different forms of energy. It classify living things and tries to explain how they function. It tells you about the pixel numbers in a picture, about the composition of the canvas, the paints used by an artist but can't really tell you if it is a good art or not.
I explain the science as the art of photograpy: it gets better to depict the nature and humans. In the past was like hand drawings, later on became like black and white photography, nowdays it is a colored photo. Still lacks the strereo 3D vision and the motion and the most important thing the life in it, thoughts, emotions and the time factor is non-existent.
So no matter how much it tries to decipher the nature science won't be able to show us the infrared or ultraviolet light in that visible picture. Because not everything is visible to the human eye and brain...
An extra sense might help which I call the belief in God... Edited by: Yahac at: 10/2/07 6:55 am
There is only one nerve reseptor for sensing hot or cold. In this case the body senses the level of heat. Below certain treshold percieves it as cold and above certain limit as hot. Between those is the optimal temp. So cold as a scientific measure doesn't exist. It is a subjective human sense which is not reproducible. Certain temp can perceived as cold by me but as hot by an eskimo! Don't forget the human element. Scince tries to abolish the human element most of the time.
Quote:Pure darkness
Pure darkness doesn't exist except probably in the black holes. And it still means lack of photons. Its measure is by the amount of photons. Again we perceive things dark depending on the amount of light that falls on the retina. It is relative term. If you suddenly go from a bright place to a less lit area in the begining it will be perceived as very dark but as the retina and iris adjust to conditions you will be able to see better and realize that actually it is not that dark. Different intensities of light can be perceived as the same level of light by our eyes in different conditions or by different devices based on their quality and sensitivity. So those measurements are subjective and deceiving. So science is still so behind of many things. But measurements done by devices are more accurate and repoducible but still might not make sense when apllied on the humans.
Edited by: Yahac at: 10/2/07 7:05 am
Re: Does Evil exist?
The story is meant to boost sentiments about religion. I can dig that, but now we have Aadmin ruining the whole thread with his irrelevant observations. If you don't mind, I will pick on those.
Quote:Cold is emotion based assumption as what exactly is the universal point where hot stops and cold begins or is it judged according to what humanity has agreed to be the standard. From a more scientific viewpoint cold can certainly be measured as well as heat. Now lets regard the absence of heat part. Heat can also, according to this, be judged as absence of cold.
While I was reading that part of the text, I was afraid that there might be some dude who would not understand what it was saying. You seem to be one such dude, so for you, we will take it extra slowly.
Cold is not emotional based (what the hell would that mean, anyway?). If you mean to say that coldness is perceived by our senses, then yeah, sure. No secret in that. Yes, temperature can be measured, and based on its levels, we perceive it for being cold, temperate, or hot. The text is trying to say that according to the laws of physics, cold does not exist. They are correct. Coldness is just a perception to describe what we deem to be as too little heat. Our coldness is subjective. A polarbear may have a different opinion on what cold is.
Now, heat can be measured because heat is created by a force--an energy--, such as fire. It is for that reason that heat is deemed to exists and can be measured. There is nothing that creates coldness (artificial frigidity is irrelevant to this discussion) and for that reason, it cannot be measured, because nothing creates it. We just perceive the lack of enough heat as unpleasant and call it coldness. Therefore, you only measure the amount of heat, or the total lack of heat, existing in the area; and based on those results, you refer it to being cold, temperate, or hot; or any other combination based on those three.
Quote:Pure darkness is a point where black color prevails in its pure form and if black color can be measured then it does exist.
Black is not a color. Wiki explains it better:
Quote:Black is the shade of objects that do not reflect light in any part of the visible spectrum. Scientifically, black is not a hue (color); a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them. This is sometimes confused with black being called 'a mixture of all colors', but that is not the case. In fact, an object emitting or reflecting all colors is perceived as white. Sometimes black is described as an "achromatic color"; in practice, black can be considered a color, e.g., the black cat or black paint.
In practice, the color black can even be manufactured, such as black paint, black clothes, etc. Those are just artificial structures made to repel light. Therefore, they appear black. The space that is perceived as being black lacks enough light to illuminate it.
Quote:Evil not only can not be measured but there is not even a consensus as far as what constitutes it or what makes something evil.
Good, you're learning. That was also the point the author wanted to make. The rest of your rant, I have not read. I just scanned through it and it goes something like this: 'blah-blah, logic; yadda-yadda, logic.'
Edited by: Anittas at: 10/2/07 12:49 pm
RuseBG Senior Moderator
Posts: 9719
(10/2/07 10:26 am)
Re: Does Evil exist?
We can go on like that forever. There is no stupidity, but absence of wisdom. No gays but lack of straight men. No pictures in my e-mail, just absence of senders
Quote:There is no stupidity, but absence of wisdom.
Well, neither of those two can be measured. You could say that you can test the intelligence, and the rest will be subjective.
Quote:No gays but lack of straight men.
That would be about statistics.
RuseBG Senior Moderator
Posts: 9722
(10/2/07 10:41 am)
Re: Does Evil exist?
Quote:You could say that you can test the intelligence, and the rest will be subjective.
Intelligence is subjective too. You can be the most intelligent person in the world, with tons of knowledge on anything, and still in certain situations and among certain people you could feel like the last idiot.
Quote:That would be about statistics.
Yeah, with numbers going up in the wrong direction.
Re: Does Evil exist?
Thus I claim. Science is describing the way things run but not the purpose. Darwin tried to implant a certain reasoning behind them- the fittest survive- but still didn't explain why ?. Science can only take the picture of something but can't give you the sense of life in it. Can depict the shades of things. So this is an effort to freeze and investigate events while in fact they actually never stop. Everything is dynamic and relative but science is an approach to catch a certain moment and draw conclusions from it. It is a search knowledge that might or might not help the life of humans. But definately not necessarily looking to make it more meaningful.
I don't understand why some people believe blindly in science. This is like a new religion for them.
A simple example from medicine: compared to 10 years ago now we use so many different medications in the management of so many diseases. New surgeries new interventions. We find that diseases evolve too. Does that mean 10 years ago science was not a science? No. But we learnt many new things. We are in constant search for knowledge and that has its prizes. But are we blindly to believe in science? No. Science actually requires findings to be assumed as refutable. There is no absolute facts in science. Everything is relative. And as the universe expands things change accordingly.
The ablsolute things are in religions. They represent something like magnetic field or gravity force- a power that opposes the entropy, the expansion, division and destruction. A unifying force, a meaning for being alive.
So the catch is, science is not designed to make your life more meaningful, but only easier. Like the money. If you have it you are comfortable but not necessarily happy.
Religion and science thus explore totaly different aspects of life. They don't nullify each other but just the opposite they complete each other. One is the body the other one the soul. Both of those together make something alive.
Amin. Edited by: Yahac at: 10/2/07 2:14 pm
Re: Does Evil exist?
If science means that to you, then so be it; but if others find science to hold a higher purpose in life, then so be it for them. Science does try to explain the purpose of things. Sometimes, it may even get it right.
Quote:the fittest survive- but still didn't explain why
Are we talking about natural selection? The fittest survive because we select to breed with the fittest, in order to strengthen our survival--that is, our offspring.
You are right about science not being complete and not being able to give answers to everything. Sometimes, science may not even be consistent, which makes it very annoying; but you're wrong when you say that science is just a way to make our lives more comfortable. Many fields in science do not offer us that, nor do they have the purpose to do so. If we take astronomy, as an example, their objective is not to make life easier for mankind on a material level. They research and explore the space to find answers.
Man, why do you open these topics where Aadmin can preach us his logic? It's pure torture.
RuseBG Senior Moderator
Posts: 9733
(10/2/07 2:50 pm)
Re: Does Evil exist?
Quote:Man, why do you open these topics where Aadmin can preach us his logic? It's pure torture.
Yahac is possessed - by the evil spirits of religious excitement.
Quote:Man, why do you open these topics where Aadmin can preach us his logic?
Don't worry, so far I haven't encounter any serious preaching on this issue. Human nature man, I like to question everything! Can't help it!
RuseBG Senior Moderator
Posts: 9740
(10/2/07 10:44 pm)
Re: Does Evil exist?
Quote:Why on earth sometimes Bulgarian women marry Gypsies despite the opposition of everybody. Looking for the fittest. And still they breed more than any other "fittest" Bulgarians and their number constantly increases. And now Gypsies rule in BG.
Yahac, what about splashing some water on your face and getting in terms with reality?
Re: Does Evil exist? (IPT)
Yahac, all that sounds like a bitter-sweet melody.. quite banal actually.
Many religious sects (from US) are using such methods to convince others to belive they are the right one to join.
Evil is destruction and disorder... Or more correctly the implications of destruction and disorder on humans. The subjective perception of that differs from person to person but the source/the reason is the same - destruction. So simple!Edited by: Yahac at: 10/3/07 10:19 pm
Does Evil exist? (IPT) 
at: 10/2/07 5:30 am
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