Forum Nostalji - Scythians haha
The Legacy of Scythians
by Valentyn Stetsiuk
(Extract from "Research into Prehistoric Ethnogenetic Processes in East Europe", Book two)
Abstract
The second part of the book deals with the ethnic paternity of Scythians. In book one of the "Research into Prehistoric Ethnogenetic Processes in East Europe" we found out that a Turkish tribe of Bulgar was settled on the area westward from the river Dnepr since III mill. BC. Ukrainian archeologists found here some artifacts of the earlier Scythian culture, which have its roots in native cultures of this region. While no native roots of the Scythian culture can be found in other regions of Ukraine. Therefore, assumption can be advanced that Scythian culture belonged to old Bulgarians, whose descendants are modern Chuvashs. Comparison of Scythian onomasticon (= the list of proper names) with modern Chuvash lexicon was performed in order to check this hypothesis. Onomasticon list is available in the Ukrainian text below. Out of 199 words of Scytian onomasticon have 130 Chuvash parallels. Some examples are the following:
Scyth. Argaio (Argaio) - Chuv. a rkay "trout";
Scyth. Dokiwn (Dokion) - Chuv. ta k "pour"+ yun ‘blood";
Scyth. Zwrqtinhs (Dzortthtinnes) - Chuv. ça rttan "pike" (fish);
Scyth. Pasarou (Pasarou) - Chuv. pa sara "polecat";
Scyth. Saitafarnou (Saitfarnou) - Chuv. se te "add" + parne "present, gift";
Scyth. Satra-baths (Satra-bates) - Chuv. sa ta r "rub" + pa ta "porridge, gruel".
Topics and personages of Scythian mythology also can be explained with the means of Chuvash language. For example, Scytian gods Papay and Api are correlated to Greek Zeus and Gea. Chuv. "papay "grandfather, old man"and epi "grandmother" ("old woman") sound very suitable here.
The explanation of Scythian legend about Targitaios and his three sons Lipoxais, Arpaxais, Kolaxais as well Scytian toponimy are given in the book.
All these linguistic findings combined with archaeological artifacts allow to confirm that Scythian had Turkic origin and modern Chuvashs are Scytians descendants.
Valentyn Stetsiuk
Gr. Skovorody str. 9/7,
Lviv, 290010, Ukraine
tel., fax. 380-322-427414
tel. private 380-322-766258
Desire's Myspace No EU No Cry
Put that Sugar onn my tongue tongue, yippe yippe yum yum...goody goody gum drops!!
RuseBG Senior Moderator
Posts: 9146
(11/7/06 11:32 am)
Re: Forum Nostalji - Scythians haha
Never forget the native Americans, the Sitting Bull, Jeronimo and Tekumse included.
They were Turkic too.
Vinetou is doubtful. After all, he is a literature character only.
Re: Forum Nostalji - Scythians haha
I like this topic reminds me good memories of weaknesses of ruse and anittas..
Quote:
Never forget the native Americans, the Sitting Bull, Jeronimo and Tekumse included.
They were Turkic too.
Vinetou is doubtful. After all, he is a literature character only.
Quote:How i knew i would see u here good ol Rusey.. wheres Anittas?
anittas is getting ready to leave his country by 2007
The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass again "Attila the Hun"
Victory belongs to those who say "Victory is mine"
Success belongs to those who start with "I can Succeed"and end with "I have succeeded". Mustafa Kemal Ataturk
HEED, O TURK! AS LONG AS THE BLUE SKY DOES NOT CRUMBLE ABOVE, AND THE DARK EARTH DOES NOT YAWN OPEN BELOW, WHO IS THERE TO DISRUPT YOUR HOMELAND AND YOUR WAY.Orhun Inscriptions
Re: Forum Nostalji - Scythians haha
ThatRomanious probably waits for that Romani Circus which is on tour in Greece. As far as hinted, his position is secured as the clawn of the circus
On contrary, I think BulliesBG must have already left for the UK just like most of his Mongrol friends from Danube river. Probably, he would be moving tables in Marks & Spencers as a part of his life time task.
Quote:ThatRomanious probably waits for that Romani Circus which is on tour in Greece. As far as hinted, his position is secured as the clawn of the circus
On contrary, I think BulliesBG must have already left for the UK just like most of his Mongrol friends from Danube river. Probably, he would be moving tables in Marks & Spencers as a part of his life time task.
thatRomanious is also king of Hittites,, ( he is very talented and share his valuable knowledge at junks of wikipedia). his ancestors have been disappeared for centuries until his family have re - appeared in history again on 15th century in Eflak Province of Ottoman Empire.
a short but enjoyable story of immortal king of hittites Hail Anittas
The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass again "Attila the Hun"
Victory belongs to those who say "Victory is mine"
Success belongs to those who start with "I can Succeed"and end with "I have succeeded". Mustafa Kemal Ataturk
HEED, O TURK! AS LONG AS THE BLUE SKY DOES NOT CRUMBLE ABOVE, AND THE DARK EARTH DOES NOT YAWN OPEN BELOW, WHO IS THERE TO DISRUPT YOUR HOMELAND AND YOUR WAY.Orhun Inscriptions
Re: Forum Nostalji - Scythians haha
who are these people?
The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass again "Attila the Hun"
Victory belongs to those who say "Victory is mine"
Success belongs to those who start with "I can Succeed"and end with "I have succeeded". Mustafa Kemal Ataturk
HEED, O TURK! AS LONG AS THE BLUE SKY DOES NOT CRUMBLE ABOVE, AND THE DARK EARTH DOES NOT YAWN OPEN BELOW, WHO IS THERE TO DISRUPT YOUR HOMELAND AND YOUR WAY.Orhun Inscriptions
Meltdown711 Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 6537
(11/7/06 9:30 pm)
hmm
Scythians and the later Sarmatians are an Iranic people. All theories that they were Turkic are about as plausible as the cheesy moon theory. Furthermore these simple etymological connections are completely ridiculous. Albanians try and do the samething, its unfounded...
HOWEVER, the fact that ancient sources describe just about anything north of the Caucasus and in the steppes of Russia as Scythians must also mean that they probably also counted in various Turkic tribes with similarities to these people. That wouldnt be a surprise.
The sources support the idea that modern Slavs are the descendents of the Scythians and the Sarmatians and the varioues sub-people that grew out of these, the Alans for examples. The Slavic language shows a lot of similarities to Iranic.
Albanians call the Serbs Shkjie which most believes come from the Greek word for Scythian, Skythes.
Quote:Valentyn Stetsiuk
She sounds like a Chuvash... Very very critical.
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"Serbs were guilty as a people"
-Nobel Peace Prize Candidate, Martti Oiva Kalevi Ahtisaari -
I never had, but I might let you know when I think about it.
Meltdown711 Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 6540
(11/7/06 10:24 pm)
hmm
Quote:You are bloody mistaken MeltDown, Scythians were the King Albanians, and they used to speak Norwegian.
Thats your fault if you dont believe the general consensus of scholars on this issue.
Quote:
member of a nomadic people originally of Iranian stock who migrated from Central Asia to southern Russia in the 8th and 7th centuries Bc . Centred on what is now the Crimea, the Scythians founded a rich, powerful empire that survived for several centuries before succumbing to the Sarmatians during the 4th century BC to the 2nd century AD.
Re: hmm
meltdown, did you know that ancestors of Chinese people were proto type albanians? you must be proud of builting oldest civizilation in the world..
also Huang Di was proto type :P albanian.. the reason of albanians have migrated from china to europe is caused by chinese people have gained power over albanians and extended their power all around china. firstly they migrated to northern and called Scythians by greeks. the story never ends..
Sun Tzu was last known albanian in china.
Colombus was an albanian too, Da vinci always said he is proud to be an albanian. Elizabeth I of UK (virgin queen) was also an albanian.. UK Royal family originated from albania too.
neil amstrong was the first albanian and man walked on the moon..
The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass again "Attila the Hun"
Victory belongs to those who say "Victory is mine"
Success belongs to those who start with "I can Succeed"and end with "I have succeeded". Mustafa Kemal Ataturk
HEED, O TURK! AS LONG AS THE BLUE SKY DOES NOT CRUMBLE ABOVE, AND THE DARK EARTH DOES NOT YAWN OPEN BELOW, WHO IS THERE TO DISRUPT YOUR HOMELAND AND YOUR WAY.Orhun Inscriptions
I think we are all Albanians though we are not aware of this fact.
I liked your sources though. Interestingly, the authors of those articles are P’iankov, Basirov, Lubotsky, Szemerenyi.
So, I wonder. Have you got any resources other than the Soviet/Eastern European schools?
You think that the Rus would promote the idea that these lands were inhabited by the Turks? We know that Sarmatians were Iranian people, but it is really doubtful that the Kimmerians, Scythians and Saka were Iranians too.
Quote:Scythians are illiterate, there is no written record left. However few Scythian words survived by Herodotus. According to him, 'pata' meant 'to kill'; 'spou' meant 'eye', 'arima' meant 'one', 'oior' meant 'man'. From these words, the phiologists are able to define Scythian dialecte as a prehistoric Indo-European language.
During last two centuries, many rich and extraordinary finds were excavated from Scythian tombs and graves such as Pazyryk site in the Altai mountain of south-central Siberia, Kul Oba in the Kuban basin of the northern Black Sea.
The Khan (leader) of the Tatars
The 'Golden Man', a Sacae warriors costume that dates from around the 5th century BC, found in kurgan on the banks of Issyk Kol Lake (Kyrghizstan).
In my opinion, Iranian origins of the Scythians is nothing, but some European speculation.
Edited by: JannissaryofByzantium at: 2/20/07 3:52 pm
Meltdown711 Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 6553
(11/8/06 7:21 pm)
hmm
Quote:Have you got any resources other than the Soviet/Eastern European schools
Like I said above, just ask and i will bring you sources from Cambridge Ancient History, which identifies the Scythians as a people of iranic stock. This is the general concensus and the words of a non name Chuvash historian wont move the field.
I did state that because of the sheer size of the land of Scythia it is likely that a number of Turkic people/tribes were included. However, this does not make the Scythians as a Turkic people.
On top of it all the sources I put up are long detailed studies with their own references. People with Degrees. The last one wrote his stuff for a German University and taught at one.
Quote:
During last two centuries, many rich and extraordinary finds were excavated from Scythian tombs and graves such as Pazyryk site in the Altai mountain of south-central Siberia, Kul Oba in the Kuban basin of the northern Black Sea.
The armor is negligable, all steppe people wore the same armor, Turks werent an exception though they eventually grew to the most significant. Steppe people influenced eachother no doubt, just liek all people in history did. The fact that they show a tomb in the Altai shows that the Scythians pierced that culture, it doesnt say that they were Turkic.
Quote:In my opinion, Iranian origins of the Scythians is nothing, but some European speculation.
Unscientific drivel. The fact is that European dominate the historical field and are the ones lead by the most non-biase, contrary to other nations which constantly use history to justify their politics. Balkans and other more uneducated parts of the world can argue, but their arguements usually amount to nothing special.
On top of it all, what makes your opinion worth anything? Do Middle Eastern/Balkan/Turkish contain more value then the most prestigous schools in the world? Mind you in these schools there are professors from all over the world, contrary to the other places...
This is not to say Russian's are any small people in the field of history. Rozstovseff was one of the pre-eminent scholars on the Roman Empire, Ostrogosky on the Byzantines and numerous others in the field of the Scythians. Russian's also lead the way in Scythian archeological work...
Currently the biggest and best work ever done on the Scythians come froma Russian (no surprise) by the name of Andrei Ivanovich Lyzlov. You should look his stuff up.
Edited by: Meltdown711 at: 11/8/06 7:35 pm
Quote:Like I said above, just ask and i will bring you sources from Cambridge Ancient History, which identifies the Scythians as a people of iranic stock. This is the general concensus and the words of a non name Chuvash historian wont move the field.
Based upon what sort of evidence? In fact, there is no concensus related to the issue though there are different schools claiming different interpretation.
Quote:
I did state that because of the sheer size of the land of Scythia it is likely that a number of Turkic people/tribes were included. However, this does not make the Scythians as a Turkic people.
We talk about the times when the name Turk did not exist. In that regard, disqualifying the Scythians as the ancestors of the Turks would be like ignoring the whole Euroasian steppes and the life style of the nomads living there.
Quote:
On top of it all the sources I put up are long detailed studies with their own references. People with Degrees. The last one wrote his stuff for a German University and taught at one.
Scythians had tamgas, Scythians had the runic script, Scythians have certain rituals, and the Scythians used to speak more than one language. So, how do they conclude that the Scythians were Iranian peoples?
As one could see, there is nothing certain. There are theories, but there is no conclusive evidence.
Quote:The armor is negligable, all steppe people wore the same armor, Turks werent an exception though they eventually grew to the most significant. Steppe people influenced eachother no doubt, just liek all people in history did. The fact that they show a tomb in the Altai shows that the Scythians pierced that culture, it doesnt say that they were Turkic.
This is your personal conclusion.
Presently there are no any evidence of the fact that the Sayan-Altaian tribes entered the Tele group. On the contrary, according to the Old Turkic genealogical legends, the Turk tribal unit existed in the Altai. It had been formed before the middle of the 5 century when the Ashina clan (probably practicing the ritual of corpse cremation with horse) migrated to the southern part of the Altai and assumed the name of "Turk" as an ethnicon. In the Altai the rite of burying a human corpse together with a horse was already known at the Scythian epoch. Burials with horse of the first half of the 1 millennium have been recently discovered there (Belyi Bom II, kurgans 12, 14; Bulan-Koby III, IV; Ust-Edigan, kurgan I, burials 3, 15, 22, 23)12
Many of the Hun and Turkic tribes had the wolf and various dog breeds as the totem animals and in Turkic languages bo"ru" refers to wolf. Herodotus also mentions the Scythian NEURI, who "turn into wolves once per year.. as a ceremony no doubt. This tribal name is much like the Hurrian NAIRI tribal name. The royal tribes of the Huns had the dragon (LIU-ente dynasty) as their totem like the Medes and royal Scythians. It would only be natural for the royal Scythians to have the half serpent half woman being to be their ancestress with the type of legend Herodotus related about the mating of Zeus with such a mythical "mermaid", which Herodotus calles the daughter of Bor-isten(es).
Kurgans The word kurgan comes from Turkish. The Scythian name for kurgans remains unknown. appear frequently as Scythian historical phenomena. Well-known kurgans include the "royal kurgan" groups, Arjan in Tuva, Pazyryk in Central Asia, Seven Brothers in the Kuban, Ust-Khadynnyg, Kelermess and Novozaved, Steblev group, Uash-khitu (Europe), Bashadar and Tuekta kurgans in Sayan-Altai, Maiemir and Issyk kurgans in eastern Kazakhstan, Khystaglar, Large Erba, Kazanov-3 and Shaman Mountain kurgans in Southern Siberia. Most of the ancient kurgans, regarded by people with kurgan traditions as permanent cemeteries, saw re-use again after their original owners abandoned them. Kurgan Issyk preserved a silver dish with a Scythian inscription (A. Amanjolov, "History Of The Ancient..."
Unknown or were not searched since this might have resulted in academic failure?
Quote:
Unscientific drivel. The fact is that European dominate the historical field and are the ones lead by the most non-biase, contrary to other nations which constantly use history to justify their politics. Balkans and other more uneducated parts of the world can argue, but their arguements usually amount to nothing special.
On top of it all, what makes your opinion worth anything? Do Middle Eastern/Balkan/Turkish contain more value then the most prestigous schools in the world? Mind you in these schools there are professors from all over the world, contrary to the other places...
This is not to say Russian's are any small people in the field of history. Rozstovseff was one of the pre-eminent scholars on the Roman Empire, Ostrogosky on the Byzantines and numerous others in the field of the Scythians. Russian's also lead the way in Scythian archeological work...
Currently the biggest and best work ever done on the Scythians come froma Russian (no surprise) by the name of Andrei Ivanovich Lyzlov. You should look his stuff up.
The Soviet authors and propagandists are at variance with each other as to the dates during which the Turks existed. According to the Ozbek Sovet Entsiklopediasi (Tashkent, 1971), Turks existed in Central Asia from roughly the 6th to the 16th centuries and again in the 20th. (Entry on Turk). D. E. Eremeev, in Ethnogenez Turok; proiskhozhdenie i osnovnye etapy etnicheskoi istorii (Moscow, 1971) presents, albeit parenthetically, an amazingly garbled bit of misinformation: he mentions attacks on the Byzantine empire by Scythians in the 11th and 12th centuries and, in a footnote, explains that the Scythians were Turks (Tiurk) from the Balkans (p. 75). A misreading of Barthold's Turkestan P. 137
I dont say that my opinions worth billions. I only point our my doubts about some studies conducted, and I dont think such approach is somehow an unscientific drivel.Edited by: JannissaryofByzantium at: 11/10/06 7:07 pm
Meltdown711 Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 6605
(11/10/06 7:20 pm)
hmm
experts.com is not a source Jani. It just takes everything posted from wikipedia. Except that it only refresh's every month or so.
Quote:
The Soviet authors and propagandists are at variance with each other as to the dates during which the Turks existed.
The ones I mentioned were not byprocust of Soviet propaganda. They learned their stuff outside of the system, check where they taught...
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"Serbs were guilty as a people"
-Nobel Peace Prize Candidate, Martti Oiva Kalevi Ahtisaari -
Quote:experts.com is not a source Jani. It just takes everything posted from wikipedia. Except that it only refresh's every month or so.
Yes, and they dont say anything different than what you say, that is what I point out.
Meltdown711 Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 6607
(11/10/06 9:21 pm)
hmm
Quote:Yes, and they dont say anything different than what you say, that is what I point out.
I just pointed that out. Nevertheless, concensus is concensus...
-------------
"Serbs were guilty as a people"
-Nobel Peace Prize Candidate, Martti Oiva Kalevi Ahtisaari -
That Anonymous Inpersonating Instigator
Posts: 136
(11/10/06 10:53 pm)
Re: Forum Nostalji - Scythians haha
The thing I like about old Janny is that he tells the old European world to kiss his ass. Well, he does it in a forum, but still. I like that. "Screw you, Europe," says he and many other Turks, while receving money via Western Union from their relatives.
I envy you, Janny, Desire and Hunnic. For even tho I've lived in a Western country since I was 11, I still haven't achieved your level of arrogance; and how I wish I were that arrogant!
To be a little bitch like Desire, rolling her eyes, stamp her feet and tell everyone: you bore me! Or to be able to write a whole sentence in English -- as Hunnic is able to--, and then be over confident about it.
A thread that was supposed to be about Scythians managed to be about Anittas and Ruse. I don't know what the Scythians were the most, but I know even less of what you are.
reminds me good memories of weaknesses of ruse and anittas..
albanians? you must be proud of builting oldest civizilation in the world..
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