*Not* the same ol "evil" thread...
...another sort of evil thread.
On the car radio as I was going to work a few mornings ago, a conversation between the DJ's about a child who was charged with plotting a Columbine like scenario in my area. Background on said kid includes: single parent family (mother) who spent very little time with kid. Kid's room, according to the DJ's, was strewn with bits that should have indicated to an "attentive" parent that the kid had "problems" (headless doll collection, etc). The radio station took a couple of callers, all of whom said that the kid should have been regularly "disciplined" by his mother (read: "spanked/hit")
Quite aside from my non-existent parenting strategy (I have no need of one), I think this response completely overlooked the crucial issue of human nature.
How often have you frozen, been rendered speechless by an unexpected cruel remark or act against you? No one expects cruelty. We don't inspect strangers for signs that they're going to randomly stab us...so how much more predisposed might we be to overlook signs that someone we know well would harm us or others?
Around the time of the bombings, I authored a thread reminding people of the mundanity of "evil". The rendering of those who maim, kill, rape, assault, abuse or molest is not one dimensional as the newspapers would have one believe. These people eat breakfast, go to work, stop for pedestrians, do favors and act politely just as any one would. How much harder is it then, to recognize "evil" in someone when you live with them and watch their daily routine proceed like the daily routine of any other?
How does one recognize this level of illness in others if it shows no outward signs until the acts which defy our attempts at denial are completed?
If one were faced with the prospect of dealing with tendencies in another which were "evil", how might that "evil" be diluted/expunged from that person? ...Or is that even possible?
Wanderer Intervention and Flow
Posts: 54
(12/9/01 12:08 pm) Reply
Evil
Quote: How often have you frozen, been rendered speechless by an unexpected cruel remark or act against you?
For better or for worse, I rarely find myself frozen or speechless. Perhaps I did more when I was growing up.
Quote: No one expects cruelty. We don't inspect strangers for signs that they're going to randomly stab us...
Actually, I do that sometimes. I always thought paranoia was something everybody has to deal with to some degree or another.
Quote: so how much more predisposed might we be to overlook signs that someone we know well would harm us or others?
Most parents are not equipped (emotionally, intellectually, financially) to see the signs, let alone deal with them.
Quote: How much harder is it then, to recognize "evil" in someone when you live with them and watch their daily routine proceed like the daily routine of any other?
I try to deal with it by accepting that death is a possibility every day, no matter who we go to school with or work with. One of the things that struck me the most while reading Shogun (about one year ago) was how accustomed the Japanese were with the inevitability of death.
Quote: How does one recognize this level of illness in others if it shows no outward signs until the acts which defy our attempts at denial are completed?
This is especially difficult in modern cities, where the population is so dense that it is practically impossible for most people to be cautious of every individual. Even when it is possible to closely observe our neighbors, we still must be prepared to react appropriately. I wouldn't mind seeing self-defense courses in public high schools. Maybe karate, aikido, or even tai chi.
Quote: If one were faced with the prospect of dealing with tendencies in another which were "evil", how might that "evil" be diluted/expunged from that person? ...Or is that even possible?
Therapy. Of course, in practice today, that translates to over-medication to induce non-activity.
SugarSpun Registered User
Posts: 2
(2/10/02 9:12 am) Reply
Paranoia
My self-defence training was all about expecting the unexpected. When watching people go by, I developed the habit of describing each person in three words, and it increased my awareness a great deal.
I'm not immune to paralysing attacks, however. On September 13th of last year, I was sitting on my backpack in Port Authority bus terminal waiting for a friend. (My flight had been due to leave on September 11th, I had budgeted accordingly and was left with exactly 25 cents. Luckily a friend who lives on Long Island had promised to come get me until the flights resumed). It was virtually deserted except for employees, and a man who was pacing back and forward. Suddenly he leaned directly over me, with his hands against the wall, trapping me beneath his body, and asked me for some money. I told him I had nothing left, and he responded by telling me that God could see me, and that He had a plan for those on the hijacked flights and was going to get to me too. He started whispering more serious threats to me, but I didn't know what to do. Eventually I kicked my backpack into his legs and pushed myself out to the side of him, and ran into an area where there were four employees who prevented him following me, and when my friend arrived, one of them put us into a cab.
I think I'm telling this story to highlight my beliefs that it is very difficult to deal with evil when it is staring you in the face, that evil breeds more evil and that it is just as mundane as Wanderer says and so we should be taught how to deal with it.
The problem is, I think, one of resources. Teachers (in the UK, I don't know very much about schools in the USA) have been given a dual role as administrator as well as teacher. Coupled with the increase in class sizes, they are getting through less with the children than previously. So I suppose its a matter of finding time for self-defence classes as well as everything else.
Perhaps also a problem is that, by making such classes available to all school-children, the ones disposed to wrong-doing are also learning new skills. At the moment, if someone attacks me, and they have no knowledge of what I have learned, then I am at an advantage. If everyone does these classes I lose that advantage.
An interesting question, I think, is whence evil? Is it a social problem? I am loath to bring out cliches of fragmented societies, but I do think that the moralists have a point on this one. Not to the extent that we should all be celibate before marriage, married for life and marrying for convenience and convention rather than love, but in the sense that community is not something we truly have any more. I lived in a block of six apartments for a year, and spoke to exactly three occupants, all for practical rather than social reasons. I think the traditional ideal of family values and community spirit is a good one, and it is not good that we have lost it. In smaller areas of the UK it is still alive and well, but in and around London people avoid speaking to each other wherever possible, and I think it is here they need the most help. A lot of people have the experience of being disrespected by others, and this is the attitude they adopt, one of default hostility. Again, I'm loath to blame society for the ills prevalent in it, but I do think it is at least partly responsible.
(I think I've gone off topic, so I'll stop).
DeShaz Registered User
Posts: 11
(2/10/02 11:10 pm) Reply
Re: Paranoia
From a psychological perspective...I have to say that I believe that some people are just born "evil" for lack of a better word. Psychopaths or sociopaths are born, in my opinion, more than made. They have no conscience and no internal measure of right and wrong. Most know the socially acceptable mores, but apply them only in ways that benefit them. Some sociopaths manage to fit in to society --- others become serial killers, taliban leaders, etc.
My experience of psychopaths and sociopaths is they mostly come from average families. Sure, some are abused or come from "dysfunctional" families - but there are a lot of dysfunctional families that don't create psychopaths. I think there is some inherently wrong with the person.
Just my 2 cents.
Wanderer Intervention and Flow
Posts: 67
(2/25/02 1:29 am) Reply
evil
After rereading your initial post, Nous, I noticed another comment on which I'd like to comment:
Quote: We don't inspect strangers for signs that they're going to randomly stab us...so how much more predisposed might we be to overlook signs that someone we know well would harm us or others?
Actually, sometimes I do inspect strangers for such signs. I'm sure its just paranoia. I think our culture teaches paranoia, though. It doesn't seem like a good thing, but perhaps it serves a purpose. I am less likely to look for signs of danger from people I know than people I don't know, though there is always some extent to which we do not know every person we know. Do you think we should be more cautious or do you think we should not worry about potential dangers at all?
DeShaz
Are you saying you think sociopathic behavior is a matter of genetics? Is that a hypothesis or a conclusion?
DeShaz Registered User
Posts: 2
(2/25/02 3:25 pm) Reply
Re: evil
No Wanderer - I wasn't meaning to imply that sociopathic behavior is genetics - at least not in a hereditary sense.
Rather, I think that they may be born missing something. Perhaps a random mutation. But they seem to be missing a conscience. I've seen too many horribly abused and neglected people to think that abuse causes a lack of conscience. Perhaps it contributes to determining whether a sociopath will be a extreme businessman or a serial killer.
Does that make any sense? This is of course, a hypothesis...but not mine alone. As you know, I don't think we've really proven much of anything in developmental psychology. Lots of ideas, though.
Oh - and regarding healthy paranoia! For heavens sake...don't worry about every little thing. But, also don't foolishly place yourself in dangerous situations. How many times do we tell young women not to walk alone across campus at night? A little paranoia is self-preserving. Don't trust everyone you meet. Don't believe everything someone tells you. Use some good old fashioned common sense.
I agree with you that there is a type of "evil" written into the chemical makeup that comprises the biochemistry of certain diagnosable minds.
My focus, however, is on a "normal" schoolkid who one day shoots classmates and self or a mild mannered tech school student who highjacks a plane...etc. People who, for some reason (which makes perfect sense to them but very little to the rest of us) act in harmful damaging and "evil" (using evil here as the literal and figurative reverse of the word "live".) ways.
My interest is not so much in them and their behavior, but in the way they are percieved both before and after their acts and whether, because of the denial of the larger populace, more evil festers in the response to an act than in the act itself.
For example:
In a small town one day, one man shoots another. The next day, the entire town lynches the murderer. Where is there more "ick"-factor?
Wanderer
I'm not certain I'm saying we should be more or less wary of individuals (either familiar or strange). I think my thought is more along the lines of the idea that denial of some of the attributes of human nature leads all the more surely to the expression of them.
The oft quoted words: That which you seek to destroy, you reinforce.
Evil
Evil is all in the eye of the beholder though isn't it? Social conventions (read leash) determine what is acceptable and what isn't, which means the measuring stick that determines good and evil is dynamic according to one's location, faith or other un-natural boundaries. Even sacrificing children was an acceptable and established form of religion.
One might also consider inherent evil to be a product of natural selection. If millions of years of evolution have created us, genetic evil survived for a reason. Perhaps the sole purpose of evil is to ‘prune the shrubs’ once in a while.
The evil you seem to be discussing is different from the pain and suffering we inflict on millions of others only through speed. The political will to maintain world economic dominance destroys the governments, economies and the very fabric of life is countries that get in our way.
Iraq is a prime example. The US government propped up a failing dictator, supplied him with chemical and biological weapons to use against Iran and then ignored his so-called violation of international law when he poisoned his own citizens. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait PAID the US military to defend them, which makes the US nothing more than mercenaries. US imposed sanctions have since killed millions of Iraqi civilians because said dictator (remember-installed by the US governement) is acting in the best interest of the American economy. The only difference between the deaths of these people and the death of someone you physically strangled is distance and time.
We only say human life is priceless. Life is absolutely meaningless for the right price. The price isn’t always cash, that’s all.
Re: Evil
Hey Sopha. Thanks for the insight regarding the US and Iraq relationship. I completely agree with you. The US has quite a history of mercenary foreign affairs.
Regarding the question of inherent evil, even though this sounds way too Freudian, from my personal experience sex and violence are a given in the human mak[/u] and it takes a controled effort and education to be a decent, respectful, law-abiding person.
To be socialized it to learn to control sexual or violent impulses. And an impulse, by definition, is something done with out rationality.
If a person is lucky enough to have a healthy upbringing and attentive loving parents who are aware of the danger of inherent impulses and curb them to avoid harming self or others, good for him. The biggest stroke of luck, I think, is the parents to whom you happen to be born.
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