In the more generally accepted theory the Celts spread outward
from Central Europe [Hallstatt and La Tene] to establish themselves
on the Atlantic Coast, British Isles, north of Italy and Yugoslavia.
However, according to another theory, the movement was in the other
direction, form the Atlantic coast and islands to the interior of
Europe.
This probably muddies the water rather than helping, but I was very struck
last weekend by the resemblance between British Iron Age round huts and
yurts. There is also the matter of the Urumchi mummies and the similarity
of their fabrics to both Hallstat and also later British fabrics
In fact I thibnk the real problem is what one means about where people
*originally* come from. Given that "Celtic" is a purely linguistic term,
and given that we know absolutely nothing about any languages before written
records, there was plenty of time from the Ice Age onwards for people to
wander East then West then East again or vice versa. If people of cultures
connected with Celtic languages had practiced artificial cranial
deformations I would be pretty certain which way they went, but as it is
there is only the fabrics and the house shapes to give much guidance.
This article notes a connection between the Scythians and Celts
but disappointingly fails to give details. The author suggests
eastern origins for the Celts and Germans. He claims Druid priests
connect themselves with the Scythians at an early period.
There are various Rudra like figures such as Cernunos among the Celts,
who like Rudra [Shiva] is the lord of the animals and is portrayed
in a yoga posture, as on the Gundestrop Cauldron.
Both migration and cultural diffusion would be involved in the
movement west from Aryan India in remotest antiquity.
Well, the Celts in Britain did claim descent from the Scythians (I had a lot
of fun with a Hungarian correspondent over this, particularly the mythic
role of stages).
The Gundestrup cauldron may be a complicating issue because the figure in an
apparent yoga posture can also be seen as belonging to the "Auld Clootie"
traditiion: the crippled god (I remember an article in a journal of
Indo-European studies a decade or so ago on this poinT)
Hancock argues for it as a model of the northern hemisphere involving
precession. A byproduct of "lost science" would be that the ancients
worked out that the earth is a sphere. See HEAVEN'S MIRROR, pgs 45-52.
Is there a "lost science" implying connections between Druids in
the British Isles, Egyptians, Scythians, and Indian Aryans at an
early period?
Re: Origin of the Celts
I don't know that they did. We don't have any evidence about their
astronomical beliefs. If you're thinking of Stonehenge, this predates them
to an immense extent, and you don't have to know the Earth is spherical to
calculate sun and moon rising/setting points
Re: Origin of the Celts
According to Herodotos, the Greeks (read Pelasgians) along the Pontus
believed the Scythians descended from Herakles about 1000 years before
Xerxes invaded Europe. (ie 1500 BC) But then Herakles was Pelasgian himself.
The Pelasgians introduced oak worship in Greece (oak of Zeus at Dodona) and
therefore may be linked with the druids.
I gather the word celt means axe, though I don't know where this comes from
ie from the Celts themselves or from the Romans, or even the Greeks. But
from what I gather the Pelasgians were also axe-carriers/axe-worshippers.
Double-axe symbols from the "Mycenaean" period have been found at Dodona.
The Danaans of Greece were originally Pelasgians from the Peloponnese who
moved to Egypt in around 1700 BC but then returned to Greece via Rhodes in
around 1500 BC. But they were subsequently expelled from Greece by Pelops &
co whereupon they are thought to have gone to Britain. They may have been
responsible for the tower structures built along the coast of Britain.
Thus there seems to be a connection between the Scythians, Pelasgians, Celts
and Druids.
Re: Origin of the Celts
It was the Greeks who called them the Keltoi; they don't seem to have called
themselves anything generic. The Romans seem to have been a bit confused
(this may have been deliberate, political) about whether some peoples were
Celts or not.
There are indications of connections between Britain and Mycenae in the
bronze age, but the culture is so different from peoples generally
considered to be Celts that they are almost certainly not Celts. Axes were
of little importance in Iron Age (generally viewed as Celtic) culture. If
there is any connection between Scythians and Celts, it would have been via
the area north of the Black Sea, which may also be the route by which they
reached Asia Minor.
Oaks were imoirtant in a lot of cultures for practical reason; it turns out
that the Greek writers were right in saying that before farming people in
Greece ate acorns. They were wrong, though, in saying that those people
were vegetarian.
> It was the Greeks who called them the Keltoi; they don't seem to have called
> themselves anything generic. The Romans seem to have been a bit confused
> (this may have been deliberate, political) about whether some peoples were
> Celts or not.
Of course, Hdt.2.33 seems our earliest mention.
> There are indications of connections between Britain and Mycenae in the
> bronze age, but the culture is so different from peoples generally
> considered to be Celts that they are almost certainly not Celts.
> Axes were
> of little importance in Iron Age (generally viewed as Celtic) culture.
Not too sure what you mean here. The Etruscans held the double axe as a
symbol of power which was later adopted by the Romans as the fasces. The
Romans may have disenfranchised the Keltoi of their axe. W.Ridgeway
describes European stone axes as celts. The single axe-adze made of metal
became widespread in Europe.
> If
> there is any connection between Scythians and Celts, it would have been via
> the area north of the Black Sea, which may also be the route by which they
> reached Asia Minor.
>
> Oaks were imoirtant in a lot of cultures for practical reason; it turns out
> that the Greek writers were right in saying that before farming people in
> Greece ate acorns. They were wrong, though, in saying that those people
> were vegetarian.
>
The Greek writers say only the Arkadians/Pelasgians ate acorns, but that
they also ate a wide range of other wild fruits and animals. However I
suspect the mention of acorns is a many-fold allusion. The most esteemed
mushrooms, including truffles, grow under oaks [Pliny and Theophrastus], and
oaks provided many other useful products, such as the red dye for Spartan
and Makedonian military cloaks, cork for shoes, floats, and to seal a
variety of jars and vases, timber for building, boats and weaponry, wood for
fuel, including melting metal. That acorns, as well as the mushrooms growing
under oaks, were a favourite food of pigs, and that pigs/boars feature in
many important myths [Adonis, Odusseus, Ankaios], suggests that the
reference to acorn-eating may have a greater religious connotation. With
Herakles a son of Zeus the oak god (ie Herakles' oak bow and club), with the
Skuthians descended from Herakles, and the Keltoi emerging from the
Skuthians, it seems the connection between the Keltoi and the oak was well
founded.
> This article notes a connection between the Scythians and Celts
> > > > but disappointingly fails to give details.
a big factor here is how broadly the name scythian has been defined
over time.
the greeks and romans used the term to indicate everyone in northern
europe, including celts and germans. later, the jews of germany used
this broad definition when they named themselves ashkenazim, the hebrew
rendering of scythian.
sometimes specific connections were made by classical authors, such as
between the cimmerians [of the black sea scythian region] and the cimry
[british celts].
herodotus used it in a narrower sense, to mean specific nomadic tribes
of eastern europe and central asia.
authors of medieval north-west europe lived in the shadow of
mediterranean culture, so they tended to trace their own histories to
classical/biblical sources. scythians were a popular choice to adopt as
ancestors, as were trojans. according to these sources, odin grew up in
troy speaking the trojan language that survives today as welsh.
another tendancy of medieval authors is to use classical geographic
names, even if the people referred to were already gone. the french
were called celts a thousand years after the the language of the gauls
was lost.
until about 100 years ago, linguists called the turkish and mongol
languages scythian. people living in the ottoman empire at this time,
such as the greeks, were subsequently also called scythians.
modern linguists have rejected that indentification, so now scythian
and sarmatian culture is identified as iranian.
Sollers:
> Well, the Celts in Britain did claim descent from the Scythians (I
> had a lot of fun with a Hungarian correspondent over this,
> particularly the mythic role of stages). The Gundestrup cauldron
> may be a complicating issue because the figure in an apparent yoga
> posture can also be seen as belonging to the "Auld Clootie"
> traditiion: the crippled god (I remember an article in a journal of
> Indo-European studies a decade or so ago on this poinT)
I am not a historian, but I would like to mention at the moment this
cauldron is part of a very interesting excebition at the danish
national museum. The excebition is presenting the danish iron age "In
the shadow of the Roman empire".
The text is in danish, and it says that the cauldron is thrakian, and
that it is probably made in present day Bulgaria or Romania around 200
bc. They speculate that it may have been brought to the north by the
Cimbri around 100 bc. I don't know if Scythians count as Thrakians.
DC:
>Friends,
>
>There is uncertainty concerning this matter.
>
>In the more generally accepted theory the Celts spread outward
>from Central Europe [Hallstatt and La Tene] to establish themselves
>on the Atlantic Coast, British Isles, north of Italy and Yugoslavia.
>
>However, according to another theory, the movement was in the other
>direction, form the Atlantic coast and islands to the interior of
>Europe.
>
>Can anybody contribute additional information?
Why are people so obsessed with bloody Celts. A blodythirsty lot of illiterate
savages who would sell thier own grandmother to the Romans for a amphora of
wine!
But seriously...
As has ben pointed out 'Celt' is a linguistic term and a very wide one at that.
It covers much of northern Europe. It does not indicate a people, an
identifiable ethic group, tribe or culture. Just vaguely related languages,
which given the cross-fertilisation and common root of most of European speech
isn't saying much.
For 'true' Celts, i.e. those iron age people from the headwaters of the Danube
identified by the Romans - who had a handy habit of writing things down. The
answer is easy: They didn't do either way. There was no mass mirgration of
peoples anywhere.
BTW: The Irish and Scots and not Celts, they simply speak one of the
Celtic-derived languages.
All clear? I shall now duck...
--- CML ---
MrDevil01 Registered User
Posts: 1
(1/11/04 12:59 pm) Reply
Origin of the Celts
I believe that the person above who said that celt is derived the greek work keltoi is correct. But that the name it self derives from greek contact with the celtic and is a derivation of their name for themselves. It has been said that the original word itself meant in broad terms 'the hidden people'. This would seem to correlate with celtic religious and knowledge practices.
In regard to the question of celtic expansion to the east. It has come to my atttention that very recently there has been found in Europe as far east as eastern hungary the ruins of an advanced celtic village, dated as far back as the 5th century BC. This village was not an outpost but was deemed to be part of a settled celtic society. How far further east this settlement extended is as yet unknown.
Re: Origin of the Celts
Celts, same as: Scythians, Pelasgians, Druids, Trojans, Vikings and many other tribes/people registered from old historians originate from proto Slavs or they simply were proto Slavs.
In fact Celts and Scythians were nomadic Slavic tribes in one period of history. Edited by: Gavrilo of Net at: 7/2/06 12:02 pm
Rhezus Moderator
Posts: 1828
(9/24/06 10:55 am) Reply
Re: Origin of the Celts
What I've been reading about Celts is that they were even called Galatians, probably those dwelling in the northern coast of Turkey's Pont Euxinus/Black sea - long in antiquity.
The Celtic peoples (associated with the La Tene culture) of central Europe began incursions into Thrace in 280 BC and succeeded in creating a state in Thrace in 273 BC with the capital at Thylis (Kingdom of Thylis). They developed similar culture to Thracians. The Celts continued to cross into Asia Minor, settling in the central part between Phrygia and Blythia, and founding Galatia with the capital at Ankara.
saxon Registered User
Posts: 1
(11/17/06 4:20 am) Reply
Re: Origin of the Celts
The Celts called themselves Galli, a term Julius Ceasar refers to them as well. The name Galli is important in identifying who they were. In Britain they were referred to as Galadi,
C(G)aledonia in Scotland, in Ireland a group of them used the name Dengali, in Scythia Dingli, in Portugal and Spain Galicia, and in France Gaul and has already been stated in Turkey they were the Galatians.
What does all these people have in common but a name that originates in Northern Israel, Syria and Jordan. Today we call the area Golan, during Roman times it was called Gaulantitis, or Galilee. All of these derive from the root word Gal or Gaul.
The Northern Israelite Kingdom was exiled around 720 BC into Asia Minor. Within 75 years they broke away from the Assyrians. At this time in history the Scythians and Cimmerians are introduced to us. It was the Cimmerians that spawned the Galli(celtic people).
I don't believe that all Celts or for that matter all Galatians are Israelite. However, a substantial amount were and they would dominate both the La Tene and Halstatt civilizations.
One huge clue comes in their burial rituals, using Dolmens and the Oak Tree. Dolmens are found throughout Northern Israel, Syria and Jordan as well as Western Europe and the British Isles. Outside of the middle east only Denmark has as many Dolmens.
Origin of the Celts
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