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(1/6/06 12:45 am) Reply
Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
what is an IPT thread!
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Quote:Saying that religion should be kept as private as possible is against the human nature..since the beginning of human history religion was a big part of the lives of the people.When communism came people firstly thougt it was good but after years of no religion people started to miss the overnatural since its the part of us that NEVER can dissapear.Communism only brings new Srebrenicas,new Hitlers,new Stalins,new Titos etc
False. Organized religion is against human nature and especially against free spirited European nature for it restricts though and creates dogma the very things modern secular Europe is against.
Organized religions started out in regions such first Mesopotamia and Egypt around 5,000 years ago as means of controlling primitive illiterate masses through means of fear.
Belief in religion has been most strongest in regions and time frames where and when a given population is/was illiterate or close to fully illiterate. Examples are Europe through Dark Ages or modern Afghanistan. The moment the population becomes more educated the same moment spells doom for long term existence of organized dogma called religion or at least its undisputed control over such society.
Also European free spirit doesn't need any non-european dogma and if there is any need for religion then philosophy based religions such as agnosticism are more then spiritually fulfilling (also logic doesnt allow us to go further for there is nothing to go on - and no, what some human wrote in abook doesnt count since philosophy is not naive - far from it). If someone needs a book on a daily basis to remind them that they believe, out of fear mind you, in an omniscient being then such belief can not possibly be of permanent value for it depend on having such a , man-made, book.
Napoleon had the best idea in my view in abolishing any abrahamic dogma (abrahamic=judaism and its offsprings in Christianity and Islam) that is contrary to European spirit and that Europeans had custom made religions for them previously.
Certainly if anyone was truly a prophet it would have to be the three humans that were the brightest among all humans, that ones who created single-handly western civilization. If God was to send a guide it would be most logical (and yes, true religion has to survive the test of logic) to think that such guide would have to have vast knowledge in many human affairs for humans could not be left with any doubt.
First such guide was without any doubt Socrates followed by Plato and Aristotle. They created philosophy (original science from which all sciences originated from) or THE LIGHT (hence 'Enlightenment'). On top of that the religious (meaning in simplistic terms, to prove to the primitive masses) side is also covered. Socrates being the first prophet and guided what he was told via Delphi's oracle). Oracle at Delphi serves God of Wisdom Apollo. Apollo is a God, among other things of Apollo is reason and intellectualism which is exacly what philosophy is based on.
Quote:" According to the version of his defense speech presented in Plato's Apology, Socrates' life as the "gadfly" of Athens began when his friend Chaerephon asked the oracle at Delphi if anyone was wiser than Socrates; the Oracle responded negatively. Socrates, interpreting this as a riddle, set out to find men who were wiser than him. He questioned the men of Athens about their knowledge of good, beauty, and virtue. Finding that they knew nothing and yet believing themselves to know much, Socrates came to the conclusion that he was wise only in so far as he knew that he knew nothing. Among the others, only the artisans came close to having true knowledge of their trade; the remainder of men made false claims to knowledge."
Therefore I regard the Light or Philosophy as also the only true religion (for who would the God/s select better to guide humanity in all aspects of human life then the most intelligent of all humans of all times) at the same time as well as the ultimate guide for all human affairs. The entire modern civilization is based on philosophy.
More radical revolutionaries during Devinne French Revolution (which brought back the light) wanted to fully replace dogmatic Abrahamism with Religion where main deity is one of wisdom. Therefore make no mistake Europe has everything it needs and even the religious part is covered by the most complex and most logic driven ideas that other pseudo-religious dogmas can not even come close to. In fact they can not even enter the same field, logic (the only devine truth that we as humans need to master fully).
Also modern Europe, although Secular, is not based nor even friendly towards anything abrahamic (French Revolution, guide to modern Europe, was outright againts it) and regards it is essentially non-European in nature (which it is) and the day is coming when ancient greco-roman paganism (albeit modified or this time driven by reason such as in the form of agnosticism) will reemerge as the religion that was made for European by Europeans.
To show the power of the word of the only true three prophets one needs to look at the fact that that every organized dogmatic religion had used them to help understand their own religious texts. On the other hand the true prophets (of light or reason) didn't need any religious text as a guide. Also their originator Socrates died for his ideas and was discovered by an Delphi Oracle of God of Wisdom Apollo. In other words they exist independent of everything else. Thus they exist without any need to refer to any dogmatic text. Also, the dogmatic text can not even be understood without their guide (hence caregorization in abrahamic scolastics between neo-platonists and aristotelians).
That speaks in its as far as what supercedes what in importance. It is obvious that if God/s were to send a perfect guide/s for humansm it is obvious as far as who such guides would be. Apollo has given us the gift of reason via prophet Socrates and that is all the religion Europe needs - philosophy.
PS: I am preety sure if secular world lays its weight behing this or similar idea that all other religions are not only done but will be regarded little more then a fairy tales.
Lets see some serious, related and intelectual comments.
_________
Less Balkanian Dogmatic Paranoia. More Rational Ancient Hellenic Wisdom.
Forum Emperor!
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(1/6/06 12:53 am) Reply
Re: Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
Thread moving to Greece Forum as its first IPT stop.
Strict IPt rules will be enforced (read what is IPT before posting!).
Also, I will not respond (but delete) any primordial or strictly emotion based responces (love, hate or which ever primordial nonsense that has no place in a thread like this one) or one liners (with or without smilies).
This thread is about pure reasoning.
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Less Balkanian Dogmatic Paranoia. More Rational Ancient Hellenic Wisdom.
Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 4219
(1/6/06 1:05 am) Reply
hmm
Organized Abrahamic religion was nice when the world was knee deep in the middle ages. But today, in a world that has long since modernized and has re-developed the classical ideals of humanism it is an ideology of a dark peasent past. Thats what I think.
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Exemplary punishment always contains an element of injustice.
But individual wrongs are outweighed by the advantage of the community.
There remains the subject at hand and that is what if there is almost inherent need for a spiritual guidance contains within many humans.
In such a case and considering this is a modern and scientific era I believe that religion also needs to be scientific or to be able to survive the test of logic. In the least, the kind of religion I am talking about should be by far the most logical of all kinds of pseudo-religions that we wrongly regard as religions (since in effect they are little more the fairy tales).
Now, if there is such I need I sincerely believe that Philosophy covers it much more completely then any known so called religion and the , if you will, 'Socratic religion is by far a most logical choice that even can claim to have a devine origin (though the Oracle of Delphi and God Apollo connection).
This would be, plainly put, religion of reason.
I know it sounds radical but I firmly believe that only such religion can be the true one. It has to survive logic (or at least more so then any other religion).
_________
Less Balkanian Dogmatic Paranoia. More Rational Ancient Hellenic Wisdom.
Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 4220
(1/6/06 1:37 am) Reply
hmm
Quote:In such a case and considering this is a modern and scientific era I believe that religion also needs to be scientific or to be able to survive the test of logic. In the least, the kind of religion I am talking about should be by far the most logical of all kinds of pseudo-religions that we wrongly regard as religions (since in effect they are little more the fairy tales).
Can man survive without fairytales. One of the most attractive things of the Abrahamic faith is that contrary to the dark fate awaiting you in the pagan one, it offered a great paradise. the dilusion of eternal happiness will always attract people. People like me or you have to face it that historically, we have been the minority. We may want everyone to awaken to the ideals of Socrates or men like Democratus(technically, the first atheist and first to bring up the idea of the atom). But have their teaching really ever penetrated the masses? Thats what we lack in history, them, the average people. Even those in a modern Europe will be tough to overtake. In ancient Chinese philosophy, they knew that men, in the masses, would never find true intellectual enlightenment, as was ideal, the truest kind of happiness will always be far away. The modern world has opened the doors more then ever, but nevertheless a vast majority are still left out, in need of a delusional form of paradise. The world is tough, everyone needs a way to make it easier, christianity and islam are easy answers, though weak. I remember reading an old ancient Greek quote that said "religion is true to the poor, false to the rich, a weapon for the powerful".
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Exemplary punishment always contains an element of injustice.
But individual wrongs are outweighed by the advantage of the community.
Re: hmm
if we ask our selves for what purpuse did relegion start then maybe we can sort things out a bit.
acording to the christian orthodox dogma, its because of the attempt for the human to reach "theosis" wich in other words can be described as a hell of a wisdom.. the proceidure to achieve that is to make several people understand this through their own level of perception.. my complaint is that through the metaphors and way of christianity there are some pretty lame stuff.. for example when virgin mary smelled the flower and got pregnant, when jesus made a mess of the traders outside of the temple when he made the sea pour out fish and stuff like that.. dont get me wrong, they may be great metaphors, but the interpretation that is given from many is too lame. at the end it makes the whole thing unatractive and them most likely disorientated from the main point
well , to be wise you have to be true to your self most of all, obeserve clearly and make balanced decisions.. to be "free" in this case would most likely mean to
"accept" situations.if you dont understand or know situations the you dont go there like socrates didnt. (makes sence) philosophy as a "science" can give or even overcome that in a more straight logical fashion, but still can be totaly screwed by the cynics. there has to be some meassure to that. i think thats the key
Senior Mod ('King of Hittites')
Posts: 1661
(1/6/06 6:43 am) Reply
Re: Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
Quote:Organized religions started out in regions such first Mesopotamia and Egypt around 5,000 years ago as means of controlling primitive illiterate masses through means of fear.
It started about 7,000 years ago, but how did they control the massed through means of fear?
Moderator ('Stat King')
Posts: 1990
(1/6/06 7:53 am) Reply
Re: Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
"False. Organized religion is against human nature and especially against free spirited European nature for it restricts though and creates dogma the very things modern secular Europe is against."
Actually the origional statment has alot of truth in it. The lack of religion leads to moral decay and if there is nobody or nothing to enforce morals, than it is far easier for a person or people to promote killing and ethnic cleansing. The loss of morals has other conciquences as well, namley the deterioration of society itself. Some of these deteritations involving homosexuality and the spreading of 'practices' such as BDSM over the mainstream media. You also have the group of psuedo intilectuals who state that based on simply their opinion it is wrong to execute murderers, rapests, traitors and so on. However that assumption is false because cold hard fact such as 'for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction' among other things. Nowhare in science does it say that eliminating evil (a murderer) is wrong. These are just people who let their emotions take control of their judgment. You have many of the same people supporting abortion which is the ultimate hyprocracy given that they advocate letting the guilty live and the innocent die, but I will not go further into that matter. Also I direct you to remember Einstein, born in Ulm Wurttrmberg who is among the greatest guineses in history, however he was religious. Being able to explain things does not mean being able to explain away religion and faith, something einstein noted and is proof of. With regards to perversion, the Greek pholisiphers themselves stated to do things in moderation, not to compleatly give in to every desire, yet that's what these people do and they attempt to use the Greek and later Roman philosiphers to back them up when in reality they denounce their actions.
"Also European free spirit doesn't need any non-european dogma"
And this conclusion is based on what actually?
"In such a case and considering this is a modern and scientific era I believe that religion also needs to be scientific or to be able to survive the test of logic."
As do I. Things need to be matched up to actuall proven events in history such as the base for Noah's flood being the filling of the Black Sea some 8,000 years ago and the need for carbon dating on so called relics. Other events can be explained in different ways, for some connect the volcanic eruption which destroyed the island of (belived by many including myself to be Atlantis) with the plagues of Egypt, the darkness caused by the ash cloud and the posioning of the water and all caused by the ash itself (when mount St Hellens erupted in the US, there was a major outbreak of Frogs caused by the conditions the ashcloud brang). Such parallels don't dismiss divine intetrvention, however they are far from the fairy tales of literal . Also, those who dismiss eviloution, both with regards to life and to the universe itself are still living in the middle ages. Those who dismiss life abroad in space are equally ignorant and arrogant. However those who refuse to acknowoledge that there might be a purpose in why things happen are just as ignorant and arrogant as those who still mentally live in the middle ages. Nobody has the knowledge to disprove divinity and it will be meliniua, if not millions of years before such technology to difinativly answer such questions becomes avalible (inter-universe travel and traveling through and into black holes as some examples of what would be needed).
"by far a most logical choice that even can claim to have a devine origin (though the Oracle of Delphi and God Apollo connection)."
Hitler claimed somthing called Providence guided him. And when you look at the situations he was in during WWI and escaped death from, it appears that he was more than lucky. Is that to say that he was both a prophet and his ideas had divine origen?
The only true religion is Ares the god of war and Hercules everything else is irrelevant.
Yeah Iapetus, your just like Ares, when the battle goes sour, you flee with your tail between your legs
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."Sir Winston Churchill
"We are burning the symbol of European bureaucracy and not a national symbol, we're not against the French, Germans or Spanish. We are protesting the bureaucracy which oppresses these countries."-Polish protester at anti-EU ralley
(ll. 1-17) Ares, exceeding in strength, chariot-rider, golden- helmed, doughty in heart, shield-bearer, Saviour of cities, harnessed in bronze, strong of arm, unwearying, mighty with the spear, O defence of Olympus, father of warlike Victory, ally of Themis, stern governor of the rebellious, leader of righteous men, sceptred King of manliness, who whirl your fiery sphere among the planets in their sevenfold courses through the aether wherein your blazing steeds ever bear you above the third firmament of heaven; hear me, helper of men, giver of dauntless youth! Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life, and strength of war, that I may be able to drive away bitter cowardice from my head and crush down the deceitful impulses of my soul. Restrain also the keen fury of my heart which provokes me to tread the ways of blood-curdling strife. Rather, O blessed one, give you me boldness to abide within the harmless laws of peace, avoiding strife and hatred and the violent fiends of death.
Re: Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
yeah, aris is nice too, but he is also relegion, (the metaphor towards theosis) (an agressive kind of one ) rather than philosophy (the actual analysis towards theosis)
Senior Moderator
Posts: 3562
(1/6/06 5:22 pm) Reply
Re: Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
Can anybody name one temple to Ares in ancient Greece? It is no accident that Homer depicts him as such an unlikeable character, and the Greeks generally viewed him with disdain.
The Romans venerated Mars - but the Greeks were far too rational to worship Ares. He was to be placated, not loved.
Although Einstein was a spiritual person he rejected the idea of an anthropomorphic God or one who interferes in the lives of mortals. You don't have to believe in the supernatural to love the human spirit or to marvel at a universe that is beyond our comprehension. You don't have to believe in heaven and hell in order to know you have a soul, as Aristotle showed.
But until Darwin most of the the greatest scientific thinkers were often religious, most notably Newton, who was profoundly Christian. Similarly, the greatest philosopher of modern times, Immanuel Kant, was a believer. We Europeans cannot turn our back on the aesthetic, cultural and moral inheritance of Christianity without cutting ourselves off from our greatest symphonies, the masterpieces of painting, or the great architecture of our cathedrals. A man who does not know the Bible cannot understand half the paintings in any European museum, nor will he be able to decipher the twists and turns of most of European history.
To reject our Christian heritage is to deliberately become colour-blind to our culture. I'm an atheist, not some wishy-washy agnostic, but I remember that the first real existentialist thinker was Kierkergaard.
Re: Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
i think they praised him each time before battle.. near the battleground
ofcourse, you must be faithful to "something-one" inorder to have a driving force . maybe even to your own intuition but that ofcourse could also be critisised as egoistic
Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 4225
(1/6/06 6:21 pm) Reply
hmm
Quote:To reject our Christian heritage is to deliberately become colour-blind to our culture. I'm an atheist, not some wishy-washy agnostic, but I remember that the first real existentialist thinker was Kierkergaard.
I do agree that there is a large sense of culture. But nobody today believes in the twelve gods, yet the Pantheon stands large and complete. Frescos depicting mythological creatures are still there. So ofcourse the culture it created cannot be forgetten. Its also a culture that shows unmistakable relation with the pagan past through architecture and art. But the dogma of it is what I am talking about. Still today some of the greatest pieces of architecture were dedicated to that belief.
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Exemplary punishment always contains an element of injustice.
But individual wrongs are outweighed by the advantage of the community.
Senior Moderator
Posts: 3563
(1/6/06 8:21 pm) Reply
Re: hmm
Sure, Meltdown, ignorance of the ancient Greek pantheon or of the works of Homer, Aeschylus, etc, is a sad loss for any thinking person. But the proposition here is whether such knowledge can in any sense be a substitute for an appreciation of the ‘Hebraic’ ethics and eschatology that came afterwards.
I am in any case suspicious of the motivations of those who find it difficult to accept that the cult of the ‘Jew on a stick’ is fundamental to a European identity. Europeans have used a Christian vocabulary to address many of the issues covered by Socrates and Plato since the days of Augustine of Hippo. But Aadmin is right that the spirit of the French Revolution, and hence the spirit of modern Europe, was radically opposed to Augustine’s contention that “not only the greatest but also the smallest good things can not be, except from him from whom are all good things, that is, from God”. Rousseau’s idea of man as intrinsically noble rather than tainted by original sin is however not derived from the ancients.
A key influence on the era that Aadmin eulogizes was Baron Paul-Henry d’Holbach, portrayed by Rousseau in La Nouvelle Heloise as Womar, an atheist who nonetheless embodied Christian virtues. He it was who contended that
Quote:The ignorance of natural causes created Gods, and imposture made them terrible. Man lived unhappy, because he was told that God had condemned him to misery. He never entertained a wish of breaking his chains, as he was taught that stupidity, that the renouncing of reason, mental debility, and spiritual debasement, were the means of obtaining eternal felicity. [System of Nature, 349-350]
And who was the major influence on d’Holbach himself? Spinoza.
As for organized religion being the enemy of the classical mind, it is important to remember that in the ancient world both Greek and Roman priests were civic officials, and that respect for the Gods was seen as important because it signified respect for the (political) city itself, as Aristotle argued. The fact that the Church has often been reactionary and obscurantist should not blind us to the fact that it is very hard for humans to live without institutions which preserve and embody their ethical values. Even the French Revolution created a deistic cult.
As an atheist I deplore the negative influence of Protestant fundamentalism, Orthodox bigotry and Catholic dogmatism, but as a humanist I detest the loss of respect for the human aspiration towards goodness that is so manifest in the glorification of vanity, violence and greed in our soulless contemporary media culture. One thing that Aadmin and I do probably agree about: all European children, whatever their ethnic or cultural origins, should be taught Greek philosophy from an early age, so that they know who they are. Edited by: BibleRiot at: 1/6/06 8:27 pm
Forum Emperor!
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(1/7/06 12:07 am) Reply
Re: hmm
Meltdown711
Again I understand about no need for fairy tales for people like me, you and many other ‘forumites’ and that masses may be indeed (in fact very likely) very different in the manner in which they view reality. I am not exactly referring to masses as much as concentrating on whatever is keeping the dogma active and countering it on the philosophical level but this time as theological subject not as theological tool to better understand 'holly' books. Example, Internet will be and already is also a major cultural force globally and it is of scientific nature. It alone, can bring (long term speaking - in say several decades) a final death blow to dogma but something will still need to replace it. You said it, many people are emotionally and intellectually too weak to we self-sufficient. Also, they will sway to whatever direction winds are blowing so don't worry about what they might have done or are doing. One thing is constant; they can change opinions with ease often but need a right stimuli and timing. Therefore because of their weak character they need fairy tales. I say lets guide them through reason even in that field and not let 'fairytalers' do it.
Annitas
You are asking "how did they control the massed through means of fear?” Well, let first say it was 5000 years or 7000 or whatever 1000s of years ago (which is really irrelevant here). According to what was happening in ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia we clearly have highly religious states and illiterate masses (which stayed illiterate throughout a world until 100-200 years ago). The rulers were claiming decent directly from the 'Gods'. Why, to express love towards masses - NO. Machiavelli nailed it. What do masses (illiterate or not, especially illiterate ones - it’s practically like dealing with kids) respond to better - affection or fear. Obviously fear. Affection doesn’t ensure their predictable behavior as much as fear would. Predictable behavior means increased social order while affection could easily mean chaos. Imagine one being in love and then feeling all of a sudden betrayed (whether such perception is logically justified or not and we all know how logical is love why is another reason it is a big NO-NO). Now, imagine illiterate masses with such feelings - in unison). The only remaining reason why such rulers would claim decent from Gods is to equate themselves (at least in some ways) with Gods and control masses through means of fear (even Abrahamic tradition is primarily based on this - fear from Hell and fear from God). Make no mistake, the only reason there is even need for religion is fear.
Prussia1231
No one is proposing lack of religion. I am proposing eliminating un-needed fairy tales. Also if the main concern is morality let me assure you that abrahamic morality has been greatly influenced also by the teachings of 'true (3) prophets' of philosophy. Philosophy is very simple when it comes to morals. The right path is the mean or medium (or in between two corresponding extremes, such as in between deficiency and excess). Easy to grasp formula and happens to work more then any other one by far. And, yes every reaction creates opposite reaction. Let’s take that into account shall we. Mean for a human is to be himself and regard himself as self sufficient (meaning not placing others above his own worth regarding as a being). Fear within him will cause at least some spirituality (especially in more intellectually primordial forms of humans such as illiterate masses). Same fear will also cause him to be at least somewhat superstitious. So far we are within the mean. Excess is going in one extreme where all of a sudden there is a organized religion and holy books. Now this is action. Reaction or deficiency is atheism or belief that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever whether spiritually or regarding superstition.
Also, European free spirit doesn't need any non-European dogma. Europeans are product of thousands of Years of unique evolution and cultural influences as are any given population as is their culture. Now, introducing abrahamic dogma (which is really a reflection of Semitic culture from a given time frame) into an alien environment will course such alien influence to mutate into more acceptable forms for locals (hence the reason Christianity has been mutating since in entered Europe). It’s like a body rejecting a transplant that is not suited for it. Today’s Europe is drastically different from Europe of middle ages and the reason - continuous and gradual distancing from abrahamic dogma which is a natural process (which is also occurring and has been occurring in traditionally Islamic cultures such as Iran, Turkey, Central Asia and of course in fully European ones like Bosnia and Albania such change was the most noticeable as well as in much of Turkey.)
BibleRiot
I am by no means proposing full elimination of abrahamic dogma as much as full blown marginalization of it especially within the western world first. Reason, I see it as an obstacle to reason-based western world that is gradually engulfing the globe. The dogma and scientific age do not complement. Christianity might have had its day with us but I firmly believe that such days are gone and passed and its primary place should and will (most likely) be is the museums, in classes of theology and isolated religious and long forgatten religious objects rather then anywhere else. For one to move ahead that one has to regard whether there is anything that is slowing down the advance. Abrahamic dogma is certainly not accelerating it, on the contrary is has been trying to stop or corrupt science for its own benefit. The dogma is not there for us but we are there for the dogma (which is also a profit based business as well as cultural 'guide'). In my view modern Europe owes nothing to Christianity, nothing positive that is. All the scientific western advancements occurred IN SPITE of Christianity (and in spite of Christianity's blown opposition) and French Revolution was there to practically fully cement the hold of reason over the western world and fully marginalize dogma. Next logical step is in the era of continuously increased scientific hold over the society is to focus on dogma itself and find a suitable replacement. Modern scientific era and full blown dogma do not correlate in any manner, in any matter positive that is.
iapetus72
Ares has no part in this thread whatsoever. In fact he is the worse possible Greek God to bring in here since he is furthermost from reason. Ares has no connection with the subject. The subject is philosophy. I am afraid you are missing the point all together. Therefore either contribute to the subject at hand or stop posting irrelevant fairy tales here. Also, let’s show less emotion in this thread and far more reasoning. Thank you.
PS: Thanks to all who participated and I want to see more responses from whoever wants to participate under the IPT rules. Let’s bring the ancient reasoning back to life in threads like this. Let’s surprise ourselves. Proceed.
_________
Less Balkanian Dogmatic Paranoia. More Rational Ancient Hellenic Wisdom.
Re: Philosophy as the only true religion! ('IPT')
) rather than philosophy (the actual analysis towards theosis)
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