Siege Engine Test - Trebuchet
LOGAR’S TREBUCHET NOTES
This explanation picks up where Mythic’s leaves off.
BUILDING AND TRANSPORTING
Logar is a 50 pally woodworker (around 375) with siegecraft of 1 at the time of this test. The purpose of the test was to try out a trebuchet after the recent changes and fixes to siege warfare. The test was done at Dun Crauchon, where both siege engine parts and ironwood are sold. In an earlier test (pre-changes), the siege engine window was bugged and would do strange things for no special reason. This now appears to be resolved by Mythic. The treb fired consistently with no strange reset behavior and no problems getting the control window to appear by targeting the treb and typing /control when I ran out of control range and back in again.
The parts are now so reduced in weight that a 250 str or so is enough to carry almost everything you need plus armor and weapons without being encumbered. This makes the siege engine vastly easier to use, in that it no longer has to be a team effort. A paladin might consider dressing down and wearing less than full plate for the occasion.
Remember to bring all of your tools. Strange as it seems you need a sewing kit along with planing tool and smith hammer or you can’t build a trebuchet.
The treb was built inside the tower at DC between the two merchants that stand there. It took 3 tries (siegecraft of 1 was the reason) but total time to build the engine was short, less than a minute.
THE FIRING SEQUENCE
Ammunition auto-stacks when you buy it, but can’t be used stacked. You must split up your pile of ammo into 1's. You can load a single ammo onto the treb at any time, not just during the LOAD part of the cycle. The four parts of the firing cycle are much faster than before. ARM took 14 seconds, LOAD 6 sec, AIM 6 sec, and FIRE a few sec. You can keep up a steady rate of fire of average more than 1 shot per minute.
TARGETING
Targeting is the most tricky part of using a treb. It is ground targeted (uses F5, see Mythic’s notes below) and ignores all obstacles such as keep walls and doors. As such it is ideal for attacking enemies hacking at keep doors. A treb has both a minimum and a maximum range. If your target is a location near the inner keep doors or just beyond them, the treb must be quite far back to be effective, almost at the opposite end of the courtyard. Here are the Dun Crachon distances I used:
Treb site: 425, 318 inside of tower first floor, next to siege merchant
426, 318, just in front of inner keep doors was too close, could not target. However a bit further, reads as 426.5 318.5, the treb was able to target the ideal spot for inner door attackers, just behind the inner doors.
427445, 318448 is the exact location for firing on outer door attackers.
428, 318 is the lip of the hill well beyond the keep entrance, where the casters stand, still in range.
429, 318 still in range
430, 318 way down field, was too far, out of range
So, in general, if one unit of distance is the third digit on the ground target location, the minimum range must be just greater than 1 unit, the maximum range is about 4 units.
I did not need help from a spotter. Before the battle, you can go out in front of the outer doors and target the exact spot you want, then come back in and shoot at it. You do not have to use the F5 key every time during the AIM part of the cycle; it will shoot at the last ground target you designated. You can blind target by getting a feel for how fast the cursor moves and knowing in advance what coordinates you want. I was able to pull in my range from outer to inner doors without difficulty.
RELIC DEFENSE
As mentioned, trebs seem to completely ignore line of sight and intervening obstacles. In defending a relic keep, it should be possible to build a treb inside the inner tower next to the DF gate where you would be totally free from assassin harassment. Even a low level alt weighted down to total immobility could do this and fire at the inner and outer gates with impunity, using blind targeting or out-and-back targeting.
Another idea is to place the treb behind the tower on the side furthest from the doors. Considering the huge range these engines have, you could target the approach, the outer doors, the inner doors, or the courtyard where the battle is fought when the doors go down. You would of course be vulnerable to assassins so having a bodyguard with high woodworking skill would be ideal.
AMMO
These days you have a choice of ammo:
“- A catapult bullet - which is a higher damage, low area shot.
- Grapeshot - which is a lower damage, high area shot.
- A ball of ice - which is similar to the existing catapult stone, but does cold damage.”
I plan to use the bullets, because the target is a tight mass of players at the keep door. However, grapeshot might be the ticket if the idea was to harass the mass of casters and others milling around in front of the keep, or to bombard a mass of enemies rushing into the courtyard. I would think grapeshot might be the ultimate way to disrupt casters.
DURABILITY, REPAIR AND SALVAGE
The durability of the treb does not seem to have changed much, still about 30 minutes. I was unable to repair a treb with my limited woodworking skill, so best to arrange for someone with high woodworking to come and help with this. Repairing is very slow, and the weapon operator should be firing constantly once the treb is built, not repairing. You should bring at least 40 of your favorite ammo, more if repairs are possible.
When the treb was at 10% life I started salvaging it. The bar didn’t seem to move more than a sliver, and the treb vanished when its time was up. At that time I canceled the salvage, but did find 400 ironwood on the ground, which I recovered. So the salvage rate is very good.
CONCLUSION
After the test I made some ammo and leveled my siegecraft skill from 1 to 52. At this point everything is green or gray and it becomes almost impossible to gain further levels. The ammo is easy to make and cheap (made from iron).
The next test will be when I can find some volunteers to be targets. Mythic seems to say siege damage is NOT like PBAOE ice wiz damage any more, it “has been flattened across the entire area affected. In other words, there is no drop off from a direct hit and someone at the edge of the bolt.” Not sure if this includes trebs, or just ballistas.
The question is whether the treb, properly used, is going to turn the tide in battle and prevent enemies from breaking down keep doors in a relic siege. By itself I am guessing the answer is no, but in combination with caster AOE spells, volleys or other trebs running at the same time, I bet it could make a difference. A single player with 2 PC’s could run double trebs from inside a relic keep tower unassisted!
The ballista seems to be the better anti-siege weapon in that it can target and damage an enemy ram. Just one problem - how to get a line of sight to an enemy ram that’s on the wrong side of the keep door?
***
From Mythic:
“Ground Targeting 101
To have the ability to use the new Runemaster and Eldritch Ground Target Area of Effect (GTAoE) Spells one must first be able to select a ground target since the spells will not work if they are just targeted on a Mob. So how do you select a piece of ground to target? There are two variations of Ground Targeting (GT) one is for players that use mouse look and the other is for those players that move around with their arrow keys. Since these are so different each will be covered separately. First we will cover mouse look then keyboard.
The first thing to do in Ground Targeting is to find out what key is mapped to the Ground Target function. The defaults for this are F5 in FPS style and SHFT-T in RPG style. If neither of these seem to work then use the /keyboard command to find out what key Ground Target has been remapped to. If you are using the RPG default keyboard I suggest that you remap the Ground Target function to something other than SHFT-T or any other SHFT+key since using the SHFT key with some of the keys that move the Ground Target Indicator around can lead to confusion and unexpected difficulties. Once you have found out which key brings up the Ground Target hold it down for a few seconds and you will see a set of arrows with an inverted pyramid in the middle appear at your feet. This is the indicator that you will move to where you want the spell to fire.
If you are using mouse look then all you need to do to move the indicator is click and hold your right mouse button while holding down the assigned ground target key, i.e. F5, to move the indicator away from you. The left mouse button brings it back towards you. Moving the mouse from side to side will move the indicator around you in a circle. If you lose sight of the indicator over a rise or in the grass you can rotate your mouse wheel forward to raise the center pyramid. This allows you to see where the indicator is even if you cannot see it because of intervening terrain or bodies. To bring the center pyramid again to ground level simply rotate the mouse wheel back towards you. Once you have the indicator where you want the spell to fire simply release the Ground Target key and cast the spell. If you lose the indicator or leave it somewhere then all you need to do is hold down the Ground Target key again for a few seconds and the indicator will again appear at your feet.
If you use the keyboard to predominately move around the world of Camelot then Ground Targeting for you is only a little different than the mouse look description above. You still need to hold down the key assigned to Ground Target and you will have the arrows at your feet in a few seconds. The difference is in how you move the indicator around. To move the indicator away from you press the forward arrow while holding the Ground Target key. The back arrow key moves the indicator back towards you. The left and right arrows move the indicator around you in a circle. To raise or lower the center pyramid use the Page Up and Page Down keys. Again once you have the Ground Target Indicator where you want the spell to fire release the Ground Target key and cast the spell. Again if you lose the indicator simply hold the Ground Target key for a few seconds again and the Indicator will appear at your feet.
This sounds a whole lot more complicated than it actually is in practice and that is exactly what it takes to get proficient at Ground Targeting, practice, practice, practice. The most important thing to remember is to keep the Ground target key pressed while you move the Indicator around. Once you have it where you want it you will not need to move it very often. If you do need to move it just press the Ground Target key and the Indicator will appear where you have targeted. Hold the Ground target key a couple more seconds without moving the Indicator and it will move to a location relevant to you and the indicator's initial placement. A few seconds more and it will reappear at your feet.
This is the same method used to Ground Target with catapults and trebuchets.”
Ballista does not need LOS either, as far as I know - this is the solution for ram on the other side problem. You can get the target by going near the door and using F7, then go blast the thing all to hell.
Re: Siege Engine Test - Trebuchet
The siege guide says:
"Ballistae are a hybrid between rams and catapults. They can target doors or players/monsters. Their ammunition fires directly, which act as bolt spells. This means that they can be blocked by other players or the landscape if aimed improperly. They generally do less damage than rams or catapults. They do minimal splash AOE damage as well, although not nearly as much as a catapult."
Based on this, I though it was strictly line of sight. I have not tried building and shooting one from the inside of a keep. To try it would require a target, such as a charmed creature that was turned loose at the keep entrance so I could shoot at it blind from the other side. I may try this if I could get a sorcerer or minstrel to come to DC (while albion still owns it) and help me out!
I am now in position for the next attack on Castle Excalibur.
The full equipment weighs around 250, my str was only 170 unbuffed to it took a while to get there. If any mids were watching they must have thought I was a forest tracker, players don't walk that slow!
Coordinates:
Treb site at back of
inner tower: 6015, 4308
Inner doors 6016, 4292
Outer doors 6016, 4289
Hill edge 6015, 4282
Re: Siege Engine Test - Scorpion
Months ago I did try out the smaller member of the ballista family (scorpion) on the greater boogeys in cornwall. It did require us to target a boogey before firing. The damage was minimal. The splash damage was less than 100 points per boogey. For laughs I fired a shot into the pig pen nearby and it bought an entire stampede of mad pigs after us.
Mythic re-designed scorpion/ballista/palintone to be more effective against other siege weapons such as rams. During last hib attack on Castle Excal I WAS able to melee the ram from inside the doors, whereas on other occasions i haven't been able to. Maybe it depends on the exact spot the ram is built. If it is built too far forward, it can be hit by defenders insider, but a bit further back apparently it can't. If anyone has better information please post.
As for as this class of seige weapon goes, I'd still not want to build one during a siege only to find there was nothing I could shoot at.
Re: Siege Engine Test - Scorpion
So if you can fire it over/through keep walls, how effective would it be to aim it into the gatehouse over the keep doors? And if so, how much damage would transfer to those just behind the doors? In other words, is there a z-axis component to computing splash damage?
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled." -Plutarch
_____________________ Folenor Vaedras, Briton Armsman, Palomides, DAoC, Reinstated
Re: Siege Engine Test - Scorpion
I don't know how high the z or vertical component of the AOE effect goes. As for targeting something higher than ground level, I suspect it's the same for all GTAOE effects, so Batl or an Earth Wizard might be able to tell us if it can be done.
I know that ground targeting works this way:
(1) If you are standing at ground level, the target will cling to the ground and remain at the lowest elevation possible, i.e., the bottommost terrain layer.
(2) If you are standing at an elevation higher than ground level, such as on the second floor of a building, you CAN ground target at that level (whereas you are not able to if you are at ground level, the cursor would pass underneath.)
So assuming the vertical component of AOE is limited, the only way to target the gateghouse or something similar, like a keep lord, with GTAOE is by means of /groundassist, where an inf is acting as spotter and gives the coordinates.
Re: Siege Engine Test - Scorpion
Wizzies can change the altitude of their GT by using the mouse wheel, the pyramid thingie points to the exact spot. Archers, for some reason, still target the crosshairs on the ground even though the pyramid is way up on the 3rd floor.
A trick I use a lot is to find an angle, post, or something sticking out of the wall and get the GT on that, then use the radius to hit people nearby. It takes a little doing, but you can generally see by tapping the target forward an inch at a time the exact spot it jumps up the wall.
Re: Siege Engine Test - Scorpion
Well, I finally got a chance to shoot Phleet and his friends with a trebouchet. The results were disappointing to say the least. The siege engine still takes a long time to set up and fire, thats the first problem. They broke down the doors (lvl 1) much faster than I could fire at them, in fact I got only 2 rounds off.
Second, the damage still borders on trivial. The people on the doors took about 200 per hit and I noticed a list of others I assume further away who took only 30-50 damage each. Big woop. Hanor with volley does 500+ damage per hit and she can volley almost constantly.
You would need as many as five or six trebs firing at the same time to make a real impact on a battle, and that would only be possible at a merchant keep. You also need high level doors to keep the enemy at bay long enough to get the siege engines in action, and no one is investing gold in doors much these days. So despite the round of improvements by Mythic, there really is no point to messing with siege engines other than rams, except in the battlegrounds.
Re: Siege Engine Test - Trebuchet
Lately the mids have been more or less following through on the idea of taking a merchant keep (benowyc) and then defending it with multiple trebuchets. From the albs point of view the trebs are more than merely annoying, but still not devastating. I suspect the reasons are twofold:
1. They aren't all firing at the same spot, and
2. They aren't all firing at the time time.
Simple to say, harder to do. The siege engine especially using home made iceball ammo is capable of doing 200-400 damage to anyone hit at the center of the area of effect, but if only one hits at a time then the attackers can run out of range, recover, and return. So the siege team would have to load aim and fire as one under the orders of a leader (recall the old ready, aim, fire! routine from all those old movies?). All team members must use groundassist. Then in theory all those pets and people on the inner doors take 2000 damage from the simultaneous shots and die, end of story!
Edit:
I was attacking Beno doors with a heavily armored, buffed tank and the mids were running four trebs from the back of the keep. A few times, by design or more likely luck, they did manage simultaneous fire, and even then the damage was still more annoying than anything else (about 180 per hit). Sure I must have taken about 5,000 damage over 15 minutes but so what? I was never below 2/3 life with all the resists I had, heal chant, and 2 clerics in group. The trebs made breaking down the doors take a little longer, that's about the most you can say. If they had been running 8 rather than 4, different story I think.
Re: Siege Engine Test - Trebuchet
Another note: Rumor has it Insurrection recently attacked the doors at myraddin with a ballista but did not succeed. The albion power relic keep is the only one of the six where this is possible because the terrain is flat allowing a line of sight. I am guessing the splash damage drew uber guard aggro hahahahaha
Edit:
Yes, I witnessed with a lowbie alt 2 firbolgs bombarding the inner relic door at myraddin with a trebouchet and damaging the door. They had it down 5% before an alb wizard showed up and nuked them. They had set up 2 trebs northwest of the keep out of guard aggro range. If left undisturbed, they could eventually take the inner door down.
A new slash command, '/groundset ', suggested by the Animist TL report. For example, To set a groundtarget 500 units in front of you, use '/groundset 500'.
Useful, however, it seems to have no capability for setting elevation.
Re: Siege Engine Test - Trebuchet
This guy has some eye opening comments about the ballista and its possible uses (from VIN RvR board):
Quote: The ballista is my favorite of the siege engines. While not doing as much daqmage to players as a treb, I find the targetting method much easier. You target a person and "aim", and it will drop a ground target at the person's feet and hit there. My favorite thing to di it sit high atop the main tower and look for an enemy rezzer. You can really ruin their day by keeping him targetted and using the aim button every once in a while to keep after him. Since rezzing bring the newly ressurected person to the rezzer, you can usually get more kills..forcing more rezzes and power loss on the enemy.
I haven't tried it but no reason in theory you could not stand on the peak of the roof at benowyc and build a ballista there, silly as it would look. The siege engine has a huge range, so it would be possible to hit a cleric or caster milling around well back from the doors.
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