What does "Greek" mean?
If somethin's told before, forgive me I'm new. But I'm really anxious to know what kind of a race is it? I don't have any negative intention. I don't want to start another racial motivated polemic. I just want to get some objective information and thoughts. Most of the Greek friends here claim the Asia minor was their home land and they think they have a destiny of getting it back. Because Turks come later, Turks are mixed, Turks are barbarians, etc. etc.
If so, how pure Greeks are? Who were Akhas, Ionians, Dors? They follow each other on the same land in history exiling each other. What does Hellen means? Alexander the Great was not a Greek but Macedonian, Greeks claim to be the owner of his inheritance, but Macedonians say they are not Greek. If the Anatolia was the native land of the Greeks, who were the Hittites, Phrygians, Lydians, Lycians, Troyans, etc.? Were they Greeks?
I really want to understand the Greek friends' states of minds as they claiming a land back from their current inhabitants moreover insulting them as barbarian, etc. What is the criteria of being barbarian? Turks are natural barbarians but Greeks are not because they have a great culture regrdless of they are ready to attack another country claiming its land.
I'm smelling some sort of inferiority complex. Actually you are trying to test how superior and strong you are by facing your natural enemies here but on the other hand you are not sure. You are always telling how poor country Turkey is contrasting to Greek, but you have no idea about idle capabilities and resources of Turkey. Besides, why do you compare your richness to us, in comparison to western Europe what is your weight? I'm not bothered of not being so rich as a western European because I know my poorness is artificial, my poorness is a question of system, whereas I'm living on one of the richest land on earth. Turkey is one of the most important economical and political power on earth which is capable of changing impossible to possible which remains impossible forever for any other country. This is real richness and more exciting to me.
Also most of the Greek friends believe they know many things about Turkey and Turks, but most of those are nothing but bullshits. Some thesis are true I must say, but god knows, there are many other things about my country which they don't know and which I don't like. (Just like you I believe) But I love my country and they are our problems to be cut through by ourselves. Anyway, I believe if you have chance of meeting more Turks, or visiting Turkey, most of you'll be surprised for what you see.
I believe most of you are nice guys, and a nice guy can be good friend with another nice guy, no need to ask what nationality he/she is. The most important criteria is being nice.
But one piece of advice: don't get so busy with racial roots and far past. Otherwise you become fascists. I'm telling this to both sides.
Hi Marginal, its good to have a fair moderator in the Turkish Forum here, the last one we had was a bit of a brute and vulgar, so AADMIN had to ban him.
Anyways, on to what a Greek is:
A Greek is whoever says they are a Greek. The vast assortment of people that at one time lived from the coast of Spain, to Egypt, up through your country of Turkey's interior, and into the far expanses of Afghanistan. We are very proud of having such a strong tradition and history. From science and drama, to Christian beginings and Reniasance origins, even you must agree this is a full plate to be proud of. Alexander the Great professed his Hellenism to the great King of Persia; Darius, at our greatest triumph," "I hegemon of all Greeks, come to avenge the wrong done us Greeks by Persia" and at our greatest tragedy, the fall of Constantinople your Sultan; the Conqueror referred to emperor Constantine Paleologos as "a Greek dog". Your land of Turkey was once a Greek speaking land. The Hittites and Lydians were long peacefully hellenized by the time of the arrival of the Turks. It is even evident today, 80 percent of Turkish towns having Greek origin names; Istanbul, Ankara, etc. You cannot deny, when your archeologists find an ancient cemetary, with thos familiar Greek letters that say: "Here lies Maria" or "Niko, the father". This land belonged to Greeks once. But that was a long time ago.
I dont know many Greeks who talk much about "taking back lands from Turkey" I occasionally read something about it on the internet of course. I can assure you that most Greeks- sadly in a way- , are very ambivalent towards Turkey. The extent of their anger is really towards the Cyrpus problem, of course, because this still burns in the memory of living Greeks. But that is an issue for another day.
I dont think i am superior because i was born a Greek, but i sure am happy with the hand ive been dealt, and you have a right to be too. I look at what we have done and what we've been through, and though i try really hard not to be a "nationalist", i still am very proud of it, at least for its own sake.
I really honestly look forward to the day Turkey can join the European Union, because then i know that one day Greeks will be welcome again in Turkey, and that they will be not so much animosity, and much cooperation between too countries that could have a lot to gain from it.
On the issues of "racial origins". Of course we are not 100 percent ancient Hellene. But id like to think that a good deal of our blood is of that same ancient stock, it dosent matter though, And either way, it dosent matter, like i said, a Greek is anyone who says "I am Hellene", like Alexander of Macedon at the Olympics.
I dont care about "race", and i try my hardest not to judge others by what nation or race they swear by(though i admit a bit of prejudice towards some, though we are guilty of that i think).
Regards,
Jorgios Matheos.
p.s. Have you read the book "Turkey Unveiled"? it is a recent publishing by British authors who lived in Turkey. It takes the good with the bad, and is very informative. I just want to know if you as a Turk find it accurate, thanks!
Re: Greeks
D-H-F
It is really good when you read something real sincere from anyone.
Every one should be a ''Nationalst'',but it doesn't mean that he/her should hate the other nations.
Good days are coming ahead for turks and greeks!
Today,you can see more then before;turists and greek priests visiting Istanbul.They are welcomed every time.I don't see any turk hateing them.
The days of war are gone;so please God;the hatress amidst neighbors will go.
Re: Greeks
Now we are talking my friends.
Now I think I got a possitive contribution to come into that way, so I'm proud of myself.
I haven't read that book "Turkey Unveiled", but I will if I find. But frankly I know very well "pros" and "cos" of being a Turk, and living in Turkey very well. I'm trying to be a "good" Turkish citizen, having the strong will of raising my country upwards eliminating the negative sides, as much as I can.
Somebody here yells us "Love or leave!". But we won't leave, we'll stay and clean out the dirts, because we love our country much more than they are.
Dear Ummah, I understand very well that you mean that you love your country by being "nationalistic". That's enough for me, if you love your country unconditionally, it's not so important whatever you call yourself, we are on the same side.
Re: Greeks
Marginal i would like to make a clarification about the Mecedonian issue.
First of all ancient macedonians were Dorians. This means that they belonged to the same tribe as the Sparetans. The language they were speaking was ancient greek, their names were ancient gree, their religion was that of ancient greece while their customs were ancient greek.
The confusion comes from the way that the Hellenic nation was structured at the ancient times. Each city had its own state. There were the spartans, the athenians, the Thevians, the Achaians and many more including the Mecedonians.
A very strong testement of what nationality these people belonged to was teh fact that they participated in the olympic games. An ancestror (Alexander I) of alexander the great (Alexander III) was actually a winner in teh olympic games. Every single macedonian identified himself as greek.
The word barbarian is used extensively from the ancient greeks not as an insult but to signify that the person or the nation they were talking to was not greek. For example when teh ancient greeks were saying "the great king" they were refering to teh king of persia who for them was a barbarian but nevertheless great. Sometimes though they would use it as an insult though calling other greeks barbarians.
The complication in the matter begins with byzantium and is intensified within the ottoman era. Innitially macedonia was just a prefecture. The byzantines added land to this prefecture though for administrative reasons. These lands were increased during the ottoman period. Now you must know as well ans any that nationalities were mixing in teh ottoman towns and cities and many lived next to each other. Slavic, bulgarian and other nationalities started identifying themselves as "macedonian" even they were not of greek origin and they were not speaking greek.
This situation was resolved during the two balcan wars. Southern macedonia went to greece while the rest was devided between serbia and bulgaria. Incidently the "historical" (ancient) Macedonia was owned almost entirely by greece except a thin strip that belonged to the serbs (and later to Yugoslavia). Tito thought that through owning a large part of the Byzantine and ottoman prefefecture and through proper propaganda could later claim The part greece had the "historical macedonia". Ofcourse teh balance of teh cold war did not allow him to do that but the Yugoslavians started their internal propaganda nevertheless making slavic and albanian populations believe that they were in fact related to the ancient macedonians. After the break up of Yugoslavia the "macedonian state" was formed.
the problem with them is that since they think that they are in fact macedonians they claim what is today the greek macedonia. As a matter of fact they have pu in their constitution that their current objective is teh liberation of "southern macedonia". This along with the fact that they are claim historical heritage that is not theirs creates the friction points with greece.
And also i would define todays greeks just as DHF did: All persons who speak greek and identify themselves as greeks. Indeed much of our blood is of ancient greek stock but i will not deny that there has been mixing with other nations and populations. This has always been the case in greek history though: Even the ancient greeks were a mix of tribes and clans of different origins.