Guess what we are going to discuss...
Who was Tom Bombadil?
Any thoughts and views?
Therefore I say that we will go on,
and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda... Admin at Dunedains Camp , The Prancing Ponie and Bag End All boards are members of The Tolkien Ez Board Network
I tend to go with the theory put forth on the Tolkien Sarcasm Page, that Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person. You can read the case for that theory here:
High Wizard of the Istari
Posts: 83
(10/11/00 9:38 pm) Reply
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
Here is my two cents. Actually, it is "The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth"'s two cents, but I thought it would help and get the ball rolling.
Quote: Tom Bombadil A being, lord and master of the Old Forest. His race is unknown, although it is possible that he was a Maia "gone native." Certainly his power, knowledge, and joy were great enough. Tom's power within the Old Forest was absolute, and even the Ring could not affect him, but he did not go beyond the boundaries of the Forest, save for occasional visits to the Barrow-downs and the Marish.
Tom called himself Eldest and claimed to have been alive since very early in the First Age. He looked like a Man, short and red-faced. He wore a pointed hat with a blue feather and large yellow boots. Tom was merry and blithe, good-hearted but unconcerned with the problems of the outside world.
Tom Bombadil was the name given him by the Hobbits of Buckland. He was called Iarwain Ben-adar and the First by the Elves, Forn by the Dwarves, and Orald by northern Men.
Hope this helps some. I learned some stuff myself, here.
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
Here is the one thing I can tell you absolutely for certain concerning Tom Bombadil: treat anything or anyone who claims to tell you something definitive about Tom Bombadil with extreme suspicion.
That said, these days it seems to be generally assumed that Tom is one of the Maiar. This theory isn't perfect, but it works better than most. Personally, I'm more inclined to agree with the notion that we're just not supposed to be able to figure him out.
For an excellent (and interesting) discussion of the debate, check out The Encyclopedia of Arda and look up Tom Bombadil. Also, you really, really, really want to read this essay. It's great. By the time you're finished reading it, you're almost ready to believe that the theory being presented is actually plausible. (And maybe it really is. I'm still undecided.)
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
Not quite what I was expecting..
I have read the essay "Who is Tom Bombadil?" by
Gene Hardgrove, I have his permission to publish it
on my web site, the text is very good and has very
many good points in it!
Since the Ring did not have any effect on him, it is reasonable to belive that he is Maia/Vala or even Aule to go so far as naming one of the Valar.
Many suggestions have been made:
Quote:
I suppose one could save the appearances by making him an angel, of a different order from the Istari, or by making him a god, but in both cases we would be in conflict with Tolkien's mythology.
And
Quote:
As nearly as I am able to determine, the textual basis for the idea that Tom is a nature spirit is the discussion of him at the Council of Elrond, specifically, the following remarks: "Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself" and ". . . now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them" Rings, 1:279). I suspect that many people have concluded from the second passage that Tom, as a nature spirit, has gradually become hemmed in with the diminishment of the Old Forest.
And
Quote:
Tolkien makes reference in "Bombadil Goes Boating" to a story in the Elder Edda about Odin, one of the most powerful Norse gods, thereby associating Tom with him. Second, in "In the House of Tom Bombadil" Goldberry answers the question "Who is Tom Bombadil?" with the simple statement "He is" (Rings, 1:135). In terms of medieval philosophy this would mean that existence is a predicate of Tom Bombadil and that he is therefore God.
Quote:
Tom's inability to separate song from his other activities, speaking, walking, working, suggests that it is very fundamental to his being in a profound way that distinguishes him from all other beings encountered in the trilogy. The wizards, for example, who are Maiar, chant (in the modern sense of the word) rather than sing, and never unconsciously. This continuous singing may be an indication of Tom's high status. The world was, after all, brought into existence by a group of singers, the Holy Ones, some of whom became Valar. Second, Tom's basic song is structurally related to Legolas' "Song of the Sea" (Rings, 3:234-35), suggesting the possibility that Tom's is a corruption of an original piece of music from the Uttermost West common to both. Third, Tom's songs, although seemingly comic and nonsensical, have power in them to control individual elements and things in the forest. When told that Old Man Willow is the cause of the Hobbits' problems, Tom replies, "that can soon be mended. I know the tune for him" (Ibid., 1:131), which I suggest means something like, 'don't worry. I have the plans for that thing and can fix it right away." This is the kind of knowledge that a Vala, who sang the Music, would likely have, and singing would be the natural way to apply it.
SarahStar: Recognize This? Therefore I say that we will go on,
and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda... Admin at Dunedains Camp , The Prancing Ponie and Bag End All boards are members of The Tolkien Ez Board Network
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
He is, is usually my answer too. "You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor."
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quam Apprentice
Posts: 15
(10/15/00 5:33 am) Reply
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
My personal opinion is the one from the tolkien sarcasm page: He actually is the witch-king . How else could he had saved the hobbits from the barrow-wights? besides,we never see the two together,right?
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
Have to dissagre on yor view quam, The Witchking is invisible, Tom Bombadil is visible, if the Witchking had gotten hold of the Ring, he wouldn't have given it back to Frodo..
Therefore I say that we will go on,
and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda... Admin at Dunedains Camp , The Prancing Ponie and Bag End All boards are members of The Tolkien Ez Board Network
quam Apprentice
Posts: 18
(10/17/00 3:52 pm) Reply
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
I RECOGNIZE YOU!!!! YOU ARE THE RIGHT HAND OF TOM WITCH_KING HIMSELF!!!!!! YOU COVER UP ALL THE PROOFS!!!!!
BUT YOU WON'T TRICK ME!!!! OH NO YOU WON4T!!!! I MIGHT BE PARANOID,BUT YOU ARE IN A CONSPIRACY WITH THE DWARVES TO ENSLAVE ALL HOBBITS!!!!
hmmm,taking prozac or valium mightn't be such a bad idea.
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss... thats just hilarious by the way....but im the witch king....by the way crimson, how is it that you are spellmaster of the valar with 37 posts and im a simpleton mage with like 80???
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
you guys really don't believe me eh?
well then take a look at THIS and go to the crackpot theories page. And if you still won't believe then your brain is probably spoiled by Bombadil,the evil witch-king of angmar.
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
I have already read most of the text on that page, and I have to say that I disagree with most of them..
I'm a Man.. just a man.. no more than a regular man..
not even a Dunadan Cheiftan.. hmm.. Therefore I say that we will go on,
and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda... Admin at Dunedains Camp , The Prancing Ponie and Bag End All boards are members of The Tolkien Ez Board NetworkEdited by: Aragorn II Elessar at: 10/19/00 8:57:15 am
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
You say the Witch-king would not have given the Ring back to Frodo. But according to the crackpot theory, Tom was the Witch-king's alter-ego, a shape he assumed and a secret life he lived in order to escape the horror of his existence as a slave to Sauron. As Tom Bombadil, he was like a cross-dresser who flirted with men while dressed as a woman yet bashed gays when dressed as a man. In short, a very screwed-up individual.
But as funny and as clever as this theory is, in the end I must side with those who say he is Aule. I like this idea and the essay is brilliant. I cannot find fault with it.
I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
I do think that Blackie has a point there... Wouldn't you create a little world of your own if you had the chance?? I have...
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
Hmm.. I belive that Tom Is Aule and Goldberry is Yavanna. I agree withe "Blackie" as "Smokie" called MoS. Therefore I say that we will go on,
and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda... Admin at Dunedains Camp , The Prancing Ponie and Bag End All boards are members of The Tolkien Ez Board Network
Guess what we are going to discuss...
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
Re: Guess what we are going to discuss...
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