Quote:Your mother's family suffered because they betrayed their country.
I suggest you to tell this to the Turkish Cypriots who had relatives killed by EOKA. I am sure they will give you a hug.
TiLeiOhMaleas Moderator
Posts: 2336
(8/5/07 4:57 am)
Re: ...
TMT, Turkish organisation created in the 1950's killed quite a few Turkish Cypriots aswell.
But lets look at the facts......
1964, on this day......
"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents.
Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots."
Report S/6426 of the United Nations Secretary General, 10 June 1964
1964, they never intended on adhering to the independant Cyprus plan. ANd dont say this is BS, its the UN, your beloved UN.
Re: ...
dude my family were doing busines with Greeks and English. My Grandad spoke fluent Greek. It was his Greek Pilot friend tthat helped them escape the ısland. What as there fault? why did they suffer? All he did was protect his family... just wanted to live as usual.. but the Greeks came in and started attacking blocked off his business. Tried to Murder my Grandmothers Brother. Bless the Turkish Army for coming for them.
TiLeiOhMaleas Moderator
Posts: 2340
(8/5/07 2:35 pm)
Re: ...
Quote: What as there fault? why did they suffer?
not sure, but what I am sure of is that your not the only one that has stories to tell.
Quote:During the course of 1957, TMT pressured the Turkish Cypriots into withdrawing from any co-operative ties they had with the Greek Cypriots and, on the whole, they were successful; this policy later became known as the `from Turk to Turk policy’.
from Turk to Turk, sounds all warm and fuzzy doesnt it.
Turkish army didnt save anyone. Made 40,000 Turkish Cypriots migrate out of their country only to be replaced by Turks.
Re: ...
unfortunatly for you. Turkish Cypriots and Turks from Turkey are very mixed now. You cannot distinguish them.
Considering they arrived from Turkey in the 1500's anyway, just shows they are the same people.
TiLeiOhMaleas Moderator
Posts: 2342
(8/6/07 1:54 am)
Re: ...
Quote:You cannot distinguish them.
Not all TC's arrived from Turkey. Some were Greeks who had converted to avert the peace-loving-multicultural Ottoman tax system.
By the way, didnt all you Turks say that these settlers were from eastern Turkey, Kurdish areas ?
Re: ...
They only talk bull ...they cannot stand the Anatolian gypsies.
Dirty,with no shoes and sitting on the ground to eat !
Ya ,sure Desire ,they are the same ! Where do you live? In Mars?
Quote:They only talk bull ...they cannot stand the Anatolian gypsies.
Actually, a big majority of the recent* immigrants from the mainland happen to be Kurds. Oops, there goes the Kurdish-Greek solidarity out of the window. Not to mention the irony of witnessing a bunch of peasants looking down on Turks.
*This clarification was for you, Tilei.
Ahristos rapping:
Quote:a turkish majmun is raping!for nothing!
i hate rap is negros slums music
tam -tam aman aman
i protest for turks occupation
i wond to be free let me free!
tam -tam cyprus free! from Attilas
this is my rap song now
Re: ...
Also Leo dont forget a big majority of the original settler ottomans were mixed too. So there we have a nice mix, those Ottomans are the same as those that were in Turkey, since Greeks are so pure etc.. u will find that Cypriots are closer to ottomans than to mainland Greeks.
the Greeks rose against the english.. the Turks stood by the English.. the Turks were massacred.
No. Up until the '30s there were no divisions between the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities. These people after all were totally isolated from the Greco-Turkish wars. The rift begun when the British, once they saw that the opposition was becoming strong, begun their divide et impera tactics. For example they created a Cypriot militia in which 80% would be Turkish Cypriots while 20% Greek-Cypriots. This was more or less what happened in the India-Pakistan conflict as well.
To simplify it for you, this is also what policemen do when they want to interrogate two guys: they treat one of them better than the other so the mistreated one believes that his friend has collaborated with the police and actually forgets that his true enemy is the police not the other captive.
By the way you do understand that your assertion, ''that the Turkish community as a whole wanted the British in the island'' ergo ''the Turkish community was a tool of the brutal British Colonialism'' actually legitimizes the opinion of those who wanted to completely wipe out the Turkish community of the island don't you?
Fortunately things were not exactly like that. Perhaps what you wanted to say is that you, as a British citizen, support British presence in Cyprus and not as a spokesman of the Turkish-community.
It's been a long, long time but I know a change is gonna come...
Actually not only me but my whole family wanted the British to say. BTW nothing can justify the pre meditated intention to wipe out all Turks from the Island. Coming from somebody who tries to act left wing and also comes from a people who's belief in democrasy was great... tis a shame.
Quote:Actually not only me but my whole family wanted the British to say. BTW nothing can justify the pre meditated intention to wipe out all Turks from the Island.
If someone is so much fond of Britain then he/she can go and live in Britain, the Cypriot people, whether Greek or Turkish speaking, are not obliged to suffer under the British rule, which plunders the wealth of the country for nothing.
The struggle against colonialism is legitimate. If someone supports colonialism he should be treated as an enemy. The same applies to those black south Africans or Hindus (or whatever) who collaborated with the whites in the process exploitation and suppression of billions of people.
The vast majority of the Turkish-Cypriots weren't supporting Britain, they were against Enosis. So were many (left-wing) Greeks, most notably AKEL which is the biggest party in Cyprus.
Quote:
Coming from somebody who tries to act left wing and also comes from a people who's belief in democrasy was great... tis a shame.
You should either improve your understanding of the language or stop putting words in my mouth that I never said.
Your assertions are anti-turkish actually and you can't even see it.
It's been a long, long time but I know a change is gonna come...
Quote:
If someone is so much fond of Britain then he/she can go and live in Britain, the Cypriot people, whether Greek or Turkish speaking, are not obliged to suffer under the British rule, which plunders the wealth of the country for nothing.
My family werent suffering. Also by creating Enosis it wasnt making anything better for the Turkish Cypriots. Why should they support it. If the GC wanted to be more Greek they can go live in Greece. Even today the GC arent fond of the mainlanders.
Quote:
The vast majority of the Turkish-Cypriots weren't supporting Britain, they were against Enosis. So were many (left-wing) Greeks, most notably AKEL which is the biggest party in Cyprus.
Exactly my point, so in order to stop enosis they supported Britain - after all they were a minority and were going to be ethnically cleansed.
Quote:You should either improve your understanding of the language or stop putting words in my mouth that I never said.
Your assertions are anti-turkish actually and you can't even see it.
I dont base my points on my own ethnicity - I say what I believe is right as a Human, and in the case of Cyprus, what my family suffered was at Greek hands.
I dont care about being anti-or pro- Turkish
Quote:Not all TC's arrived from Turkey. Some were Greeks who had converted to avert the peace-loving-multicultural Ottoman tax system.
Evaluate the Ottomans' approach towards people belonging to other religions within the context of the conditions of that era. At a time when belonging to another religion (the Inquisition, the massacre of Huguenuts, the Fourth Crusade, the Great Schism etc.) meant certain death in Europe, the Ottomans left their Christian and Jewish subjects free to retain their religion, provided that they paid an extra tax. In exchange, they didn't have to serve in the military.
Which one would you prefer? Going to Italy as a Greek Orthodox or to the Byzantine Empire as a Catholic and have your head chopped off instantly or live in the Ottoman Empire as a Greek Orthodox, Jew etc., pay an extra tax and do not have to serve in the military (compulsory military service, by the way, lasted 20 or so years in those days). LOL If anything, we Turks suffered more than any other nationality during the Ottoman times; the only alternatives for a Turk being, death at war or subsistence agriculture. Damn, for once in your life, give us some credit!
Ahristos rapping:
Quote:a turkish majmun is raping!for nothing!
i hate rap is negros slums music
tam -tam aman aman
i protest for turks occupation
i wond to be free let me free!
tam -tam cyprus free! from Attilas
this is my rap song now
Quote:Just like they were cleansed in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania...
Don't talk for the sake of saying something.
By the late 19th century, Turks outnumbered the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. If they hadn't been expelled and massacred en masse by the Bulgarians and considering their higher growth rates compared to the Bulgarians, Bulgaria should have become a Turkish province a long time ago and named Pomakistan.
Romania was an Ottoman vassal state, not its province and the Ottomans did not settle Turks, there. At least not in big numbers.
Serbs slaughtered Bosniaks less than two decades ago.
From wiki:
''...After the annexation, under pressure of Slavic colonization, Crimean Tatars began to abandon their homes and move to the Ottoman Empire in continuing waves of emigration. Particularly, the Crimean War of 1853-1856, the laws of 1860-63 and the Ottoman-Russian War of 1877-1878 caused an exodus of the Crimean Tatars. Some researchers estimate that one million Crimeans had to abandon their homeland in the 19th century. Many Crimean Tatars perished in the process of emigration, including those who drowned while crossing the Black Sea. Today the descendants of these Crimeans form the Crimean Tatar diaspora in Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey.''
...''All Crimean Tatars were deported en masse, in a form of collective punishment, on 18 May 1944 as special settlers to Uzbek SSR and other distant parts of the Soviet Union.[4] The decree "On Crimean Tatars" describes the resettlement as a very humane procedure. The reality described by the victims in their memoirs was different. 46.3% of the resettled population died of diseases and malnutrition. This event is called Sürgün in the Crimean Tatar language.''
Do you want me to continue?
Ahristos rapping:
Quote:a turkish majmun is raping!for nothing!
i hate rap is negros slums music
tam -tam aman aman
i protest for turks occupation
i wond to be free let me free!
tam -tam cyprus free! from Attilas
this is my rap song now
Almogavaro Registered User
Posts: 31
(8/9/07 3:24 am)
Re: ...
Quote:By the late 19th century, Turks outnumbered the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. If they hadn't been expelled and massacred en masse by the Bulgarians and considering their higher growth rates compared to the Bulgarians, Bulgaria should have become a Turkish province a long time ago and named Pomakistan.
I would change expelled for returned and even when I can't deny there were some abuses commited by the bulgarians you have to be a little naive to expect after 500 years of Ottoman opression and abuse they were going to bid them farewell with flowers and kisses. Nevertheless, after some time, almost half of the turks who left, came back to Bulgaria. So, it seems they felt better there even with those bulgarian butchers around than in mainland Turkey. Funny isn't it?
Quote:Romania was an Ottoman vassal state, not its province and the Ottomans did not settle Turks, there. At least not in big numbers.
Well, big numbers or not, they are still there and they do pretty fine as far as I know.
Quote:''...After the annexation, under pressure of Slavic colonization, Crimean Tatars began to abandon their homes and move to the Ottoman Empire in continuing waves of emigration. Particularly, the Crimean War of 1853-1856, the laws of 1860-63 and the Ottoman-Russian War of 1877-1878 caused an exodus of the Crimean Tatars. Some researchers estimate that one million Crimeans had to abandon their homeland in the 19th century. Many Crimean Tatars perished in the process of emigration, including those who drowned while crossing the Black Sea. Today the descendants of these Crimeans form the Crimean Tatar diaspora in Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey.''
We were talking about the turks and the balkans and now you moved to Russia and the Crimeans. Anyways, here you've OWNED yourself:
Quote:Today the descendants of these Crimeans form the Crimean Tatar diaspora in Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey.
But wait a minute! Weren't the bulgarians some kind of bloodthisrty monsters waiting to hunt the turks down? What happened? What were these Crimean Tatars thinking? Were they crazy? Were they on drugs? Maybe suicidal tendencies? The most amazing thing is that up to these days they are still alive and kickin' in good ol' Bulgaria. I guess there are some mysteries we will never know...
Quote:..''All Crimean Tatars were deported en masse, in a form of...
Very interesting people these Tartars, reading a little further about them I found that:
Quote:The Crimean Tatars controlled the steppes that stretched from the Kuban and to the Dniester River, however, they were unable to take control over commercial Genoese towns. After the Crimean Tatars asked for help from the Ottomans, an Ottoman invasion of the Genoese towns led by Gedik Ahmed Pasha in 1475 brought Kaffa and the other trading towns under their control.
And then...
Quote:After the capture of Genoese towns, the Ottoman Sultan held Meñli I Giray captive, later releasing him in return for accepting Ottoman sovereinty above the Crimean Khans and allowing them rule as tributary princes of the Ottoman Empire.
Greedy cowards went to ask help from big brother and in the end they got OWNED as well.
Quote:However, the Crimean Khans still had a large amount of autonomy from the Ottoman Empire, particularly, followed the rules they thought were best for them: Crimean Tatars introduced raids into Ukrainian lands, which were used to get slaves to be sold on markets.
Well, it seems these Tatars were the kind of people I would gladly join on a night out for a couple of beers.
Leaving sarcasm aside, I'm not excusing any hostile action taken against turks, tatars, bulgars or martians. But all these events teach us an important lesson: WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.
Edited by: Almogavaro at: 8/9/07 3:44 am
Quote:Nevertheless, after some time, almost half of the turks who left, came back to Bulgaria. So, it seems they felt better there even with those bulgarian butchers around than in mainland Turkey. Funny isn't it?
Dude,
If half of all the expelled/killed Turks returned to Bulgaria, their numbers would still suffice to transform a large part of Bulgaria into Pomakistan.
If you meant the Turks that were expelled (I suppose you can tell the difference between voluntary immigration and expulsion) in the late 1980s, then true, half of them returned to Bulgaria. Because:
1-The Cold War had ended by then and Bulgaria would now be facing Turkey all by itself and not have the covert support of the Soviet Union. A very good reason for the Bulgarians to behave themselves.
2-Turkey could not absorb 1,000,000 new-comers. 500K, who found a job, stayed. The rest, who couldn't find a job in Turkey, could afford to go back to their farms in Bulgaria, following an evaluation by the Bulgarians of the new international situation and their realization that they'd better be good boys.
Quote:I would change expelled for returned
Sorry to burst your bubble, but people don't all of a sudden decide to forego their land, their properties, their memories and move to an unknown.
And again, the argument that they should return because the land the Turks in Bulgaria dwelled on used to belong to the Slavs, is quite a weak one. Should I remind you that the Slavs started flooding into today's Balkans in the 7th century, displacing the native inhabitants, taking away their land BY FORCE? Damn, those bastards didn't even ask for permission from the Romanians/Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians! Shouldn't you also ask them to leave?
Quote:Well, big numbers or not, they are still there and they do pretty fine as far as I know.
1-LOL. Like a few thousand. We have that many Greeks, too.
2-The Romanians had no reason to expel them. What sort of harm would a few thousand would do? Why draw the wrath of Turkey for a few thousand land-tied peasants?
You don't see Turkey expelling its 3K Greeks or its 50K Armenians, either, do you?
If they were bigger in numbers, say a million, Turkey and Romania would be singing a much different tune. It would be a totally different story
Quote:But wait a minute! Weren't the bulgarians some kind of bloodthisrty monsters waiting to hunt the turks down? What happened? What were these Crimean Tatars thinking? Were they crazy? Were they on drugs? Maybe suicidal tendencies? The most amazing thing is that up to these days they are still alive and kickin' in good ol' Bulgaria. I guess there are some mysteries we will never know...
LOL. Again, like a few thousand. But wait a minute! There are many more Greeks and Armenians in Turkey than there are Turks in Romania or Tatars in Bulgaria. Weren't the Turks some kind of bloodthisrty monsters waiting to hunt the Greeks and Armenians down? What happened? What were these Greeks and Armenians thinking? Were they crazy? Were they on drugs? Maybe suicidal tendencies? The most amazing thing is that up to these days they are still alive and kickin' in good ol' Turkey.
Quote:WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.
Like what the Jews got during WW II.
Quote:The Crimean Tatars controlled the steppes that stretched from the Kuban and to the Dniester River, however, they were unable to take control over commercial Genoese towns. After the Crimean Tatars asked for help from the Ottomans, an Ottoman invasion of the Genoese towns led by Gedik Ahmed Pasha in 1475 brought Kaffa and the other trading towns under their control.
Again, sorry to burst your bubble, but you are talking about a time period during when territorial acquisition through war was not proscribed by international law, but was the norm.
Again, again, again, again, don't evaluate what happened 500 years ago, from the perspective of today.
Ahristos rapping:
Quote:a turkish majmun is raping!for nothing!
i hate rap is negros slums music
tam -tam aman aman
i protest for turks occupation
i wond to be free let me free!
tam -tam cyprus free! from Attilas
this is my rap song now
Almogavaro Registered User
Posts: 33
(8/9/07 8:56 pm)
Re: ...
Quote:The Cold War had ended by then and Bulgaria would now be facing Turkey all by itself and not have the covert support of the Soviet Union. A very good reason for the Bulgarians to behave themselves.
Even if the government would have an official position, I doubt that the people would follow if they would really hated or wanted to harm somebody.
Quote:And again, the argument that they should return because the land the Turks in Bulgaria dwelled on used to belong to the Slavs, is quite a weak one. Should I remind you that the Slavs started flooding into today's Balkans in the 7th century, displacing the native inhabitants, taking away their land BY FORCE? Damn, those bastards didn't even ask for permission from the Romanians/Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians! Shouldn't you also ask them to leave?
Wiki says:
According to allochtonic view: Slavs emerged from obscurity when the westward movement of Germans and Celts in the 5th and 6th centuries AD (necessitated by the onslaught of people from Siberia and Eastern Europe: Huns, Avars, Bulgars and Magyars) started the great migration of the Slavs, who settled the lands abandoned by Germanic tribes fleeing the Huns and their allies: westward into the country between the Oder and the Elbe-Saale line; southward into Bohemia, Moravia, much of present day Austria, the Pannonian plain and the Balkans; and northward along the upper Dnieper river.
Quote:Around the 6th century, Slavs appeared on Byzantine borders in great numbers. The Byzantine records note that after they marched through grass wouldn't regrow under their footprints. After a military movement even the Peloponnese was reported to have Slavic settlements. This southern movement is commonly seen as an invasive expansion, but some consider it to be a return (the Dunabe origin/Ethnogenesis conception).
Quote:1-LOL. Like a few thousand. We have that many Greeks, too.
But before you had more, and even to these days their numbers are decreasing.
Quote:2-The Romanians had no reason to expel them.
Exactly!
Quote:LOL. Again, like a few thousand. But wait a minute! There are many more Greeks and Armenians in Turkey than there are Turks in Romania or Tatars in Bulgaria. Weren't the Turks some kind of bloodthisrty monsters waiting to hunt the Greeks and Armenians down? What happened? What were these Greeks and Armenians thinking? Were they crazy? Were they on drugs? Maybe suicidal tendencies? The most amazing thing is that up to these days they are still alive and kickin' in good ol' Turkey.
I guess they were just brave people.
Quote:Like what the Jews got during WW II.
Or what the Byzantines, bulgars, serbs, etc, got during Ottoman times.
Quote:Again, sorry to burst your bubble, but you are talking about a time period during when territorial acquisition through war was not proscribed by international law, but was the norm.
I wasn't talking about territory. I was talking about the fact that even when the actions Russians took were extreme, the Tatars weren't angels precisely.
Quote:Again, again, again, again, don't evaluate what happened 500 years ago, from the perspective of today.
I'm not, but to clarify some things that are happening these days, we have to unavoidably look into the past to see what events produced them.
Quote:started the great migration of the Slavs, who settled the lands abandoned by Germanic tribes fleeing the Huns and their allies:
Dude, come on! I am no expert of ancient Balkan history, but I know enough to say that the Balkans had been inhabited by Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, Dacians before the arrival of the Slavs. Chances are, the Slavs didn't merely ask the previous inhabitants to ''please'' move and make room for new friends. Things didn't work out that way in those days.
Quote:I guess they were just brave people.
What happened to Hrant Dink is truly deplorable. On the other hand, I should remind you that there isn't a single Turk/Azeri left in either Armenia or Nagorno-Karabagh. They have already been expelled/killed.
I truly wish we Turks/Azeris were as good at voicing our sufferings as the Armenians/Jews/Greeks. Damn, we forget too easily.
Quote:2-The Romanians had no reason to expel them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly!
Because they are too few in number to cause any sort of secessionist threat to the Romanian state and, if I'm not mistaken, live in a few tiny, land-locked villages. Two generations or three and they will all become Romanians anyway. Why would Romania harm its relations with Turkey over such a trivial matter?
You don't see Turkey making any fuss about its miniscule Estonian/Polish/Persian minorities, do you?
Ahristos rapping:
Quote:a turkish majmun is raping!for nothing!
i hate rap is negros slums music
tam -tam aman aman
i protest for turks occupation
i wond to be free let me free!
tam -tam cyprus free! from Attilas
this is my rap song now
Re: ...
Oops, there goes the Kurdish-Greek solidarity out of the window. Not to mention the irony of witnessing a bunch of peasants looking down on Turks.
Damn, for once in your life, give us some credit!
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