It is not about being pro-Greek or anti-Greek.
It is about reacting in different ways to different topics and interpretations.
And basically, all our divergences come from the wrong way one has been tuned up against the other.
We share a border with those people, we share history, we share lots of positive values, so let's focus on what we have in common.
We must learn to coexist peacefully and not let meaningless hostilities and prejudices develop out of nothing.
Furthemore, peaceful dialogue is the only way to make other people consider our ideas positively, otherwise, we would just end up exchanging insults (like always) and nobody would ever give a chance the other's opinion to be expressed.
We don't want that.
I do not come to this forum to insult and be insulted.
Let's make this forum worthy the time...
canaris Moderator
Posts: 958
(11/25/03 7:03 am) Reply
by the way..Kaoni99..
our freind Alb commander is 15 years old..this is for your information...this is how nationalists are bred.
Re: by the way..Kaoni99..
Kaoni, you're a Lab arent you? You can tell us about how many 'vorio-epirotic' greeks there are in Southern Albania, from your own experienc (i.e are they rare, scattered or do they densely populate and dominate 'Vorio-Epirus' aka Toskeria?)??
Dijedon...
There are some tens of thousands of them.
They are compact in some rural zones south of Gjirokastra and Saranda and there is a number of scattered inidviduals in both those cities.
But you might occasionally find some families with Greek origin in Vlora and Tirana, as well as other cities.
I do not think there number exceeds 50.000-60.000.
Kaonii
B/c it really annoys me when people whom for example never visited "Northern Epirus" i.e Toskeria speak as if they knew everything based on some thing they've read on the net which is quite annoying! Therefore I thought that someone actually from the area (you, Shpata etc..) could enlighten us about the true demography of the region!
I's like Serbs trying to convince me we only came after WW2 when my greatgrandmother recalls we've been here for atleast 5 centuries (and probably more) and that my grandmother recalls when there were hardly any Serbs at all when she was young before the colonist came (unlike some Serbs here whom bever even visited it claim Kosova was like 60% Serbian before WW2 which is laughable)!!
Me shurdhuan kesi njerez qe flasin per territore qe as nuk i kane vizituar dhe pohojne se eshte vendi i shenjte i tyre, qesharake kur Milloshevici Maqedonís ia dha ca fshatra te kufirit Me hidheron, por cka te besh!?!?
Colours of the coastline...
Yeah, I get your concern.
Don't bother, that's human greed... to claim the highest possible payoff from anything...
People get some positive utility and comfort when they claim territories or minorities...
It is really tricky, though, the spread of bilingual (Greek-Albanian-speaking) population in the Himara region.
You come down from Llogora peak to the Ionian coastline, the first two villages, Palasa and Dhermi, they know (and speak) Greek.
Then you have Ilias and Vuno, (and Pilur, a little bit inside the land) they don't know a word of Greek.
The next place is Himara itself, they speak Greek,
After Himara there comes Qeparo, again not a word of Greek.(Qeparo are tipically labs, stubborn and good thieves, compared to the more work-lover Himariots)
And next to it there is Borsh, not a word of Greek, and surprisingly Moslem. Tricky, ain't it...
Then you don't find a Greek-speaking for all the coastline until the southernmost border.
By the way, what were the percentages of Serbs and Albs in Kosovo before ww2?
i say
make parts of south albania experimental EU ZONE. Greeks can go there more easily and start businesses, Albs can go to the area freely as they want and work or start businesses. No passport needed or even work permit to get into this zone from either Greece or Albania. Therefore there will be no immigrant policy, everyone who is a citizen of greece or albania can work/live there. Government would be made up of Greeks and Albs to reflect population, but officially the government will not be greek or albanian, just EU. Policing of the area will be funded by EU. EU funds will help develop the coast of south albania to make it like greece. This will bring more tourists etc. Albanian lobbies stop Cameria crap, Greek lobbies stop the Voiro Epirus crap. Greek Orthodox church activity can be checked and regulated in this area by co-greek and albanian watch-dogs.
I am really sorry to say that, but your mail might qualify par excellence in the second of the above-mentioned categories.
Greeks can already start businesses freely in every area of Albania and actually have much more advantages than Albanians because of the FDI law. ( and sth like 30% of Foreign Direct Investment is of Greek origin)
Coastline?
In the whole Ionian coastline from Vlora to Saranda there are merely 3 Greek-speaking villages (Himara, Palasa and Dhermi).
And we have been arguing for ages in this forum that they are Albanians.
And there already is a joint project with Italy for the infrastructure of that region, it will start very soon.
Anyway, I do not think that passing over territory to Greece (sorry, EU) is the only way to develop.
What makes you think that we might welcome an EU-governed zone in our country?
Although it might be motivated by good will, I do not think this is an appropriate settlement.
And, just for curiosity, I do not see any detail in this plan relating any compensation to the expropriation and expulsion of the Chams. What is it in this project that makes you think the Cham problem will be settled?
Quote:Greeks can already start businesses freely in every area of Albania and actually have much more advantages than Albanians because of the FDI law. ( and sth like 30% of Foreign Direct Investment is of Greek origin)
Greeks wont need passport to start businesses. They can go there freely.
Quote:Coastline?
In the whole Ionian coastline from Vlora to Saranda there are merely 3 Greek-speaking villages (Himara, Palasa and Dhermi).
And we have been arguing for ages in this forum that they are Albanians
I didnt say there were alot of greeks there. i said it could be developed like Greece's tourism. just a suggestion. I didnt mention anything about it.
Quote:And there already is a joint project with Italy for the infrastructure of that region, it will start very soon.
quote]
Well my point was to help better relations and ethnic mixing in south albania, north west greece. i dont care about italy, good luck with that if it happens though.
Quote:Anyway, I do not think that passing over territory to Greece (sorry, EU) is the only way to d
Of course, it wouldnt go to greece in any way shape or form, but to EU. Basically it could make Albania honorary EU member, a stepping stone to EU membership. like i said just an idea.
Quote:What makes you think that we might welcome an EU-governed zone in our country
Nothing makes me think it. Just thought it could bring us closer to the Europe without borders thing, and help as a stepping stone to a co albanian/greek culture, of course that is real idealistic, but i am a dreamer i guess and i like such ideas. call me a sissy.
Quote:And, just for curiosity, I do not see any detail in this plan relating any compensation to the expropriation and expulsion of the Chams. What is it in this project that makes you think the Cham problem will be settled?
i didnt claim it did anything for Chams. what do you think of part of northwest greece being in this EU state then? Anyways, Greek govt and the west approved of expulsion of muslim Cham minority for their cooperation with Axis forces against both British commandos and greek andartes. I agree it was unfortunate for the muslim chams ever to be incorporated into the Greek state, sadly this is the way things happen in the so called "realpolitik".
Again this is just an idea. What else could be done, any ideas, aside from more expulsions and xenophobic incidents?
Quote:qualify par excellence in the second of the above-mentioned categories.
well i could care less about voiro epirus, but the fact remains that bad stuff is going on there and what can be done about it in a democratic way, hopefully avoiding similar patterns of the past??
The fact is that you can progress to supra-national arrangements only through strong and well-developed nation states, able to take full-information optimal decisions.
That was the case with EU.
Functionalist supra-national organization with strong nation states in it.
I don't think that integraton by parts can prove useful in the Balkans, you never know the ways it could precipitate.
Yours might well be an innocent dream, but I don't see it as efficient as feasible.
And still, there is a presumed assumption in the background of your argument that Greek minority in Albania is prosecuted.
Really, that is not the case.
The Himara phenomenon is deeper than what you saw on the elections day. Its roots lie deep in the your country's foreign policy and the way Himara was abused by them for nationalistic purposes.
For that kind of things not to happen in the future one of the first steps is not to send busses with people to have them wave the Greek flag and burn the Albanian flag there.
shpata Moderator
Posts: 1307
(11/26/03 11:51 pm) Reply
thanks for the info kaoni
Quote:It is really tricky, though, the spread of bilingual (Greek-Albanian-speaking) population in the Himara region.
You come down from Llogora peak to the Ionian coastline, the first two villages, Palasa and Dhermi, they know (and speak) Greek.
Then you have Ilias and Vuno, (and Pilur, a little bit inside the land) they don't know a word of Greek.
The next place is Himara itself, they speak Greek,
After Himara there comes Qeparo, again not a word of Greek.(Qeparo are tipically labs, stubborn and good thieves, compared to the more work-lover Himariots)
And next to it there is Borsh, not a word of Greek, and surprisingly Moslem. Tricky, ain't it...
Then you don't find a Greek-speaking for all the coastline until the southernmost border.
not that im pro-greek but isnt lukova greek speaking?? lukova coms after borh right? than comes nivica(where one of my cousins is from) which is alb speaking, than saranda(bilingual). and from saranda to konispol is alb right?
rex362 Registered User
Posts: 26
(11/27/03 12:17 am) Reply
THE GREAT IPIROTI
there was a person who was called the Great Ipiroti by the greeks....anybody know....?? you have 10 seconds
prsh
As far as I know, Lukova is not Greek-speaking.
It became important after the plantations were built, maybe at some point Greek minority families settled there.
In Saranda, you have Greek-speakers in Vurg, not (originally) in the town. As you told somebody in a previous mail, the town is really a late development. People from Vurg who have moved to the town, will, of course, be Greek-speakers.
Quote:It is really tricky, though, the spread of bilingual (Greek-Albanian-speaking) population in the Himara region.
I agree, one of the reasons is b/c in this issue I face a moral dilemma: I believe every ethnic minority has the right to have their own schools in their own languages, or atleast special classes teaching them their mother tongue (deep down inside, beyond the patriotic armour, I believe everyone agrees with me), BUT, can himariotes count as true Greeks?? Maybe they can... but I think it's hyppocritical for them to be enjoying all these privileges (i.e their own schools, newspapers, representant in parliament) whereas our minorities in Greece arent even recognized which surprisingly announce "it's 100% homogenous in an ethnical sense"...!
I'm not trying to povoce Greeks here, many of whom I respect (especialy the very intelligent and bright DHF) but this is a fact!
Quote:By the way, what were the percentages of Serbs and Albs in Kosovo before ww2?
In 1919 the Albanians were 76% and the Serbs approximately 24%, according to the Serb official Djordje Krstic announcement.. This figure became a fact due to continuous colonization, the Serbian state expelling Albanians through the so called "Agrarian reforms" (pretekst per t'na shprengulur me dhune) and repopulated the deserted villages/regions with Serbian/Montenegrin colonists!
By 1938, the Serb percentage rised to 38%! But many of the colonists were driven away, some leaving on their own choice and some staying (actually the majority staying)! The colonization continued, Milosevic even setlled Serbs from Krajina in Kosova after the Croats expelled them... But the high Albanian birthrate successfully competed with the Serbian attempts to change Kosova's demography!
We never went under 70% (except 1939 when the Serbs became, through colonization, 38%)!
shpata Moderator
Posts: 1310
(11/28/03 5:42 am) Reply
i dont know the history of lukova
i do know that alot of olive trees were planted nga kuperativa. bu form what i read from tom wrifen(mispelled his name-- he is a vlach historian who made some journies in south albania) report, he said he heard people speak greek there. he didnt fully study the place though.
.....
People we have established the facts about where all the greeks are ok give it a rest.I m going to start a new topic SOUTHERN EPIRUS and i would hope for every one to contribute to it .Thanks and to everyone in Australia enjoy the summer because i sure am !
Epirote Registered User
Posts: 5
(6/4/05 10:26 pm) Reply
Re: Epirus
Northern-Epirus Southern-Epirus
Why? 2 Epirus?
I would prefer one Epirus.
When Epirus was divided lots of people lost their relatives.
What happened is history.
We learned from it.
Now I want as an Epirote to be free to visit Ioannena with the same easiness I visit Gjirokastra.
And things are showing that every year it is more easy to get from one country to the other without many problems and delay.
Edited by: Epirote at: 6/5/05 11:54 pm
dicey07 Registered User
Posts: 1
(11/22/05 9:12 pm) Reply
To what point?!
Me hidheron, por cka te besh!?!?
thanks for the info kaoni
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies 
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies