Re Axriste ,do you remember CHAMERIA?Lets took about that!How many kids and womens was killed by the Greek army?.....WE CALL THAT GENOCIDE!!!!!!!They have their lands,documentations of their lands wich haven been taken by the Greeks after WWII.You call us for Humman rights when the Greeks have every legal right!....schools,newspappers,political party in paliament..ect.(a i forget they want Greek university,when they are not more than 220000). You want indipendent South Albania(vorio epiri) now???????Maybe in your dreams.
Kaoni now Bato says that Greeks in S albania are220.000
A new record today from Albanian Bato 220.000 greeks
in s Albania..So Kaoni stop to speak for 60.000
any more we Go near to Nikos number ..Lets see
finaly ...But Hoxas numbers are fresh air..
In Albanias those days statistics are meny ?? marks
if production lasts 5 years plans bla..bla..So
We talk about todays reality..And not about ww2
fascists..So to day this year Heimara gives news
in greek there elections somebodu with a hand granade
ect..and some other Albanian the other story stubling..
of Greek..Now if u talk about 1943-44
Hoxa has try to long the sivile war that greeks
dont demance any N Epiros..in conference of Paris
1948..And they finaly have won..Finaly
in Vitsi and Grammos in 1949..Has stop the first
Operation western countries division next
comes Germany..After Korea..After Vietnam..
But Albanians remember Greek moral is verry
diferent..Greeks later asks sorry we had give hands
and we am against u all together..We are
Greeks..We have friends allother Balcan countries..
Where are urs???
Kaoni99 Moderator
Posts: 259
(12/12/03 4:13 pm) Reply
Re: Kaoni now Bato says that Greeks in S albania are220.000
In Albania everybody who disturbs the order and does not respect the laws and flies Greek or Turkish or Serbian or Arab or German or Panama flag will be beaten up until the shitt comes out of his head. This might be Greek monirity memmer or anybody else...
Your friends in Balkans?
Only Serbia.
Keep that friend all for yourself, nobody wants it.
And, ahristos, how can you be so stupid?????
Enver couldn't have any power at all to proloung the war in Greece.
Enver did what Stalin told him.
When Stalin told him to cut support, he cut the support.
Tito did not, and that caused him the expulsion from Comintern.
Its basic history man, everybody knows that!!!
And Enver didn't give a @#%$ about Cameria.
And Kosova.
Our partizans went up to Visegrad chasing the Germans and then retreated.
And people with Kosovo or Cham origin were the most prosecuted by the communism.
Please read sth. before coming to this forum...
Reading is good, it develops your mind, expands your horizons...
Terri i alithia fenete.siga siga me to tsigeli ta lene
Ne Terri edo me aftus ..xekinisane apo 20.000 Ellines
stin vorio ipiro ke tora imaste sto numero.220.000
to ehume dekaplasiasi..Na dume pu tha pai enas
gnostos vorioipirotis pantos pu efyge me tin ikogenia
tu..piso aeroporikos..mu ihe pi oti peripu ine afti pu menun monima 246.000 an ypologisis ke aftus pu ine stin ellada tote poli parapano..Tora pao ston kaoni..
Kaoni we have good relations with bulgarians
commercial cultural ect also with Romania..
Soon they are in E.U so u are alone and ungly
cryning woman=Albania..who cares about u
we care only for those who are compatriots
and Greece cares only for the minority not for u
at all..Your country is a xenophoviac one
if you have coperate with the serbs.in kosova
i sopose that Albanians lack has to be better
to day..Also Titos times happenings in 70s
has finger from Albania..If Greece has react
us operation contras to trow down bazucas
and to arm the minority there has to be a
vulcano..So greece in sivilise way have ask
Albanias respocibility for the ricgits of minority
also in others humans ricghs organisations..
Now if they have a strong greek feeling is because
Albania refuse to understant them problems..
In Pristina Albanians have a university..And u call
Blady the serbs..In north epiros is not any so they
have to come in Yannena to be come Greek
Nationalists..Is this u wont? so give to them education
and dont transfare them in Tirana..Also for Hoxjas
acts..there between Albanians is allot desegreements..
But hes role in Greek sivil war is wellknown not
only for norh epiros but also for others greek teritories
today all archives are open..Also russians have give
the Archives and doc to Greece..so we know all..
Also from Beograd we had some help so there
is not any darc side the darc side comes only from
Albania..who dont count the greek minority..
and dont freely cooperates..There is a problem...
Kaoni99 Moderator
Posts: 263
(12/12/03 6:17 pm) Reply
Ahristos
I am sorry, but you can't open a university for 60.00 people.
And you can talk about civilized Greeks only when you give Albs in Greece schooling (elementary and high school) and the right to have a political party.
Greeks in Albania (60.000) have those rights, and Albanians in Greece (500.000) do not.
kaoni u are wrong one...
Us Bato sed in N epiros are 220.000 Greeks
Albanian who are in Greece are only for economical
reasons..There is diference kaoni..Greeks in Alb has
stay before albanias existance.meny Albs have come
againstthe law2910 so say thanx to Gr gov that prov
education from greek tax payers to illegal job takers..
In uk they cole it economic refuges and they turne them back..forget it..Dont compare them with the minority..
is another case also with internat law..Albs in greece
if wont sitizen must stay 10 years to throw out
previus sitizen and go to arny if is man..obligatory..
Now In university..case they taken stipent and go in
Greece or Serbia for studies..Do you know
in news pictures in Beograd there in kosovos happenigs
times..Some body in demostration has wave a greek flag
he is North Epirot student who loves Albanians
That says reporter of bbc who ask hem..
Re: kaoni u are wrong one...
Not at all Ahristos. It is true that many of the approximately 500,000 Albanians in Greece are immigrants, but there are also a considerable number of Albanian epirotes living in Northwestern Greece. They've been there since atleast the medievak era, if not even earlier. Then we have the arberors (whom you call arvanites) whom inhabit many villages in Attica, Beotia, Peloponessos and other places....! They've still preserved their Albanian dialect called arvanitika.
Now they above number well above 500,000 Albanians.
Then we've got 300,000 Chams living in exile and whom havent been payed for the atrocities they endured during WW2 and the damaged and confiscation of their properties!
All these have no rights in Greece. They arent even recognized as a minority, Greece claims 100% homogenity wgich is ridiculous.
Meanwhile the small greek minority of Southern Albania whom number around 60,000 people )(not 200,000 as you say) enjoys every basical right i.e they got their own schools, television, radio and newspapers and not to mention their own party called OMONIA!
So you can figure out why we're so frustrated when you keep bitchying about increasing the privileges of the Greek minority whereas you treat the Albanian minority as dirt. Until you dont change this, dont open your mouth about your minority over here
Do you have a idea about the law
if any body have turist visa of 3 minths valit..
he is just a turist one.. Not eny ricgits in Greece..
and after 3 munths he must to returne home..
if not he is illegal..and there is law..
2cont there is articel of law2910 for illegal entries in
Greece thrue cannions ect..who makes that way
entry in greece =jail 4 hem
who entries with wrong documents..ect..=
that is specialities of Albanians..In greece..
also unregister workers with turist visa.. Generely
Albanians are problematic people even in Italy..
they dont wont to havenormalisation in society
look at Bari mafia..And i dont tallk about kosovas Albanians..That a serb wrotte in some page in this forum..So we dont need u.. if any one has problems
in greece can freely go back..and Queckly..
The 500,000 albanian immigrants are no justification for a "Minority" issue.
The arvanites as you call them feel a part of the greek nation and even if their language was albanian 100 or even 50 years ago now its greek. Their religion is greek orthodox. The chams have been thrown out because they conspired with the germans, murdered greeks and stolen their properties. They are lucky that they got to albania alive. Th eattrocities issue: we have been hearing the same song from albania for more than 40 years now. WHERE ARE THE EVIDENCE? NOWHERE BECAUSE THEY DONT EXISTS SINCE THESE THINGS NEVER HAPPEN. If albania has evidence then its about bloody time you show them and quit whinning. AND YES WE GREEKS HAVE 100% HOMOGENITY IN NATIONAL CONCIENCE AND THIS IS WHAT COUNTS IN A NATION. When you start spouting out that we are not a homogenous people just because of biological origins you show how rasist you are and you show to the world that the albanians trully and deeply believed in what the nazi's tought them during WWII.
And also keep in mind that if the greek minority in albania is abused then we will open our mouth and take action if necessary not only because we must and we are obliged towards them but also because WE CAN!Edited by: Georgios3377 at: 12/13/03 2:10 pm
there are maybe 30.000 greeks in ALBANIA and they all speak both greek and albanian so in maybe 20 years they will not exist no more but will be albanians.
greeks in ALBANIA sh*t in their pants to even think about mentioning vorio-epirus.
VANGJEL DULE came on tv and said that himself cause he knows that his career as a politician is over if he said stupid sh*t like that.
VORIO-EPIRUS is just a dream joke to all stupid greeks out there and they wouldnt have the balls to think about getting it from us.
stupid ARCHANGELOS opened this topic and he is the same piece of sh*t that talks bad about us at STORMFORNT.
you greeks are pathetic to think about VORIO-EPIRUS.
you should worry about ATHINA becoming a province of TURKEY if TURKEY were to join the EU
you greeks have no allies in this world but are there on your own
if it wasnt so much for the @$$ kissing that your gov repeatedly has given the EU big fish,you people would be in dangerous grounds right now.
you're surrounded by 2 enemies, TURKEY and ALBANIA.
if we were to get KOSOVA and WESTERN MACEDONIA i would really be sh*ting on my pants if i was a greek.
VORIO-EPIRUS
my grandfather is born in the same city as skenderbeu
Re: Do you have a idea about the law
Well I hope you're prepared for a feedback
The Arvanites: before I go further into this delicat issue I'll ask you one simple question: have you met all the arvanites?
I sincerely doubt that, and therefore you cant possible know whether all of them feel Greek or not. Even if they might feel greek in a modern definition, they have a distinguished identity and some of them such as Aristidh Kola, Jorgos Jeros etc and their organization 'Marko Bocari' fight for the right to preserve the arvanite heritage and language.
Therefore I'd suggest you dont speak on their behalf since they can speak for themselves, and just because some have totally assimilated and becomed hardcore greek nationalists doesnt mean all of them are so!
The Chams: you're a very sad individual Georgios! If there were certain quisling elements among the ranks of the Chams doesnt justify by any means the atrocities they've endured.
One cannot hold an entire population guilty upon the deeds of certain individuals!
Moreover, it was the Greeks whom massacrated the Chams and not vice versa. Before the arrival of the Germans the Greeks massactrated hundreds and thousands of Chams, expelled hundreds of thousands to Turkey and transferred 5,000 males to the Aegean Isles in prisons were many starved or were tortured to death! These were enough reasons for the Chams for wanting revenge, yet when they were offered weapons by Germans to revenge upon the Greeks they refused. There might of been some traitors and colloborators, but this doesnt justify the fact that you killed 5,000 innocent chams, not excluding children/women/elders!!!!!!!!!!!!
Isnt it ironical that the very general whom expelled the Chams, Napoleon Zervas, under the pretext that all Chams were colloborators of Nazi's (including newborn babies ) was himself a Nazi collobortor!
As for evidences, there are countless of evidences, document etc... I mean c'mon even you Greeks admit it and 'justify' (even though it cannot be justified) the crimes you commited towards the Albanians of Epirus/Cameria!
And you saying: They are lucky that they got to albania alive is just regretable!
Homogenity: Here again you go with the usual crap that Greece is homogenous... so booring......! No country in the WORLD yet alone the Balkans (the most mixed area of the world) is homogenous in any aspect, whether that be racial, linguistical, ethnical or as you put it 'in national concience'...!
I doubt you've met every member of the minorities in Grece, therefore dont speak in their name if you havent even met them. If they're so aware of their 'greekness', why do people such as Aristidh.P.Kola and Jorgos Jeros fight for the Arvanites? Why do "greek" Muslims of Thrace (Thraki) demand the right of beeing recognized as an ethnical minority i.e Turks? Why do different Vlach organizations complain over the fact that the only chance they got in learning their language is a latin course in the University of Thessaloniki?????????
Or why do Macedonian Slavs complain about not having any sort of programme educating their children in slavic????
Hmm,very homogenous
_________________________________
Now until you Greeks do not give the Albanian minorities of Grecee their rights and dont make up for the crimes you commited towards the Chams, I dont think you're in a moral position to lecture us about the much smaller Greek minority of Albania whom btw enjoys every basic rights there is, i.e their own schools, television, radio, newspapers and party (OMONIA) which is much more than Greece has to offer!
_________________________________
Ahristos: before you continue writing about the Albanian emigrants from the '90-ies I'd suggest you realise they're only a certain part of the Albanian MINORIT-IES of Greece which also includes the Chams that are left in Epirus (50,000) and those in exile (300,000) and the Arvanites (140,000)!!!!!!!
P.S Most of the Greeks of Albania are descendants of communist refugees from the Greek Civil War and slaves that were imported from Greece to work for beys during the Ottoman era!
dijedon wrong info u have
For the Arvanite if u ask them they are more
greek nationalists than me..And this 4 sure
at first they feel verry Greek second are
christians..thirt they hate albanians go ask them
u gonna have suprise..in Thiva ect somes says
that they are nothing to do with Albs...Just olds
times have some one spoke albanian but they havent
any connection with u here is also meny names
Arvanitis us fammilys name..But because some gand father has looks like Alban the call hem albanian
but nothing to do with u..that people dont recornise u
at all..Go and ask them..But Norh epirots..Says
we am Greeks..if i say not u are Albanian..
u know the answer..So i cant do nothing to help u..
Last munth in Thessaloniki police has arest a gung
of Albanians they had maken in 1 h Albanian drive
lisens. Also the Albs mafiosos had 100.000€
and meny ready for delivery lisens..
Do u know why? because the users are illegal
workers=Albanians Ali .Mohamet.mehmet.ect
who apears like Roberto Mario.Alberto.
And they havent any document..no papers
illegal ..in greece..So there is also SENGEN
triti...also law 2010 ..so the new greek gov
has to face soon this problem..and to make solutions in near future..
BibleRiot Registered User
Posts: 14
(12/13/03 5:44 pm) Reply
Point of Information
Are you just talking about recent (last 2 generations) immigration into Greece from these communities in Albania?
Just what are the Arvanites? My Greek-English dictionary says Albanian, Greek of Albanian origin.
But other people suggest Albanian-speaking Greek.
If so, what geographical area are we talking about? Arta? North of Corfu? ? ?
Do famillies stop being Arvanites when they move south into Greece for a few generations? Do they retain Albanian as a language for several generations?
Are there catholic Arvanites (now and before the conquest) or are they all orthodox ?
kavajks go to see batos number he wrote 220.000 greeks
A Norh Epirot told me that they are 246.000 Greeks
there.. And he now there..back.. Go litle up
bato says that univercity Albania dont makes because
are only 220.000 people..
so take hem in alb forum and finaly get resalte..
But we dont beleve at all Hoxjas number 3%
if they are min 8% and max 12% but normal
country is in cooperation with internat organis
u are verry special one 3 wold..reality..
thats whay u dont have any friedly country
exept Bin Landens money.. and islamists
we see ur hand against the christianity
u play a dangerus game stop it..
u gonnaloose any sypathy of western countries..
u cant stop n epirots strugle..also they have to be free
in kosovo u had a western help..
u make depresive christians..merry Xmas 4 u all
Try to understand them..if u wont
now for the Arvanites i have ask meny
they dont recornise u at all ..they dont deman any think..
finaly they call hem self Greeks..North epirots not
that is the true comme and ask them personal...
if u ask a Arvaniti if he feels minority he gonna say not
There is few theories of u for Arvanites but
i have ask meny they says that they are only Greeks..
And Orthodox in Greece 98% are greek ethics
that is the fact..Also from mesimvria=bulgaria we havr
repatriate all Greeks.in late 20..Arvanites i sopose
that in 1300 have come with Venetians..and
today have intigrade in Greek population..They feel
just greeks and they Hate muslims..=Albanians..
in Trace we have some muslims ethnic turks Pomachs
and gypsies 120.000 people ..
Re: dijedon wrong info u haveAhristos: perhaps you werent paying attention when I gave some feedback to Georgios, but I'll ask you the same thing I asked you: have you met every arvanite? I sincerely doubt you have, therefore you cant speak on every arvanites behalf... Perhaps there are Arvanites whom are hardcore nationalists and have the same views as you, but there are those whom arent such as Aristidis Kolias, Jorgos Jeros etc...!
Also I dont see exactly how the arrest of mafiosos have to do with the fact that you havent given the Albanians any national right at all in Greece!?!? Am I missing something?
As for Vorio-Epirios, be realistic man, theere are hardly 60,000 Greeks there. My father visited those areas and he hardly saw any 'minoritares' at all. He can only think of one such occasion, every other 'epirotian' was Albanian.
They have nothing to do with you, I cant help you any further, what you do with this information I gave you is your choice!
______________________________________
BibleRiot: The Arvanites are the descendants of Albanian highlanders and farmers that settled in Greece approximately 600-500 years ago..! They settled and created compact communities, especially in Attica, Biotia and Peloponessos but even other areas such as the Ionian and Aegean Isles, Macedonia, Thrace and even Crete and Cyprus etc....!
During the arrival of the Turks the Arvanites fought alongside the Greeks for Greece's liberty. Heroes such as Krokondilos Kladas, Centurion Zaharia, Dhoksa Arberori, Theodhor Bohala, Pavlos Bua etc were all Arvanites i.e Albanians...!
Later, the klephtes and armatoles would be mainly compromised by Arvanites..! The great freedom war of 1821-29 was also fought by the arvanites. Heroes such as Georgios Karaiskakis, Odysseas Androutsos, Theodhoros Kolokotronis, Andreas Miaoulis, Laskarina Boumboulina etc were all Arvanites. Later however, the term arvanite would be equivalent to illiterate farmer after propaganda from the more authentic hellenes. That led to the consequence of many Arvanites denying their roots and hellenizing themselves faster. Two other factors for their hellenization was the fact that they werent recognized by the Greeks as a minority and separate ethnicity and the urbanization!
The majority of Arvanites today are assimilated and may be considered Greeks. However, approximately 140,000 of them have still preserved their non-hellenic speech and identity.
Activists such as Aristidis Kolias and Jorgos Jeros alongside their organization 'Marko Bocari' (gr.Markos Botsaris) have continuously fought for the preservation of the arvanite language and identity...! The Greeks however arent very supportive.
Conclusion: the Arvanites are the descendants of Albanian settlers of the XV and XVI centuries. They probably have some greek blood in them, but their origin is certainly Albanian.
So they, I'm referring to those whom have maintained their identity, may be considered a non-greek minority!
krazy one= Trelokomio..
freedommakes allot krazys..
The Arvanites p know in Attica
viotia ect they just wont to be a greeks..
he can make hes org..and hes paranoia is only that..
if there is any minority ..Greece can give reconisation
to whom one to 5 persons ..mejority are wont to
be just a greek.. Go and ask arvanites..freely..
meny says that is just a nick name..not any more..
Degjo budallo!
Aha I see..... but of all nicknames why choose arvanite which means Albanian? How come they speak Albanian?
I mean surely there are those whom have been assimilated among the ranks of Arvanites, but there are those whom have kept their distinct no-hellenic identity. Ogranizations such as 'Marko Bocari' fights for the preservation of this identity!
Quote:Go and ask arvanites..freely..
meny says that is just a nick name..not any more..
My father visited Greece and many Arvanites a couple of years ago.. He was welltreated by all Arvanites as soon as they heard that he was Albanian, they bought him great meals.. Why? If they're such hardcore nationalists, all of them?
He once asked a couple of men whether they used to listen to Radio Tirana?
-E degjojme, por vetem kur s'eshte greku ketu..! meaning that they listened to it only when the greeks werent nearby, obviously showing their fear to become discriminated due to their non-hellenic identity!
PROVOCATIONS
Kaoni now Bato says that Greeks in S albania are220.000
kaoni u are wrong one...
) was himself a Nazi collobortor!
so booring......! No country in the WORLD yet alone the Balkans (the most mixed area of the world) is homogenous in any aspect, whether that be racial, linguistical, ethnical or as you put it 'in national concience'...!
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