Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator
Posts: 7487
(9/8/07 6:48 am)
Do you believe this to be true?
"The regions of the Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins, and Albanians make up together an area of very strong Dinaric predominance. Other racial strains, however, are also evident in these peoples: Mediterranean blood has penetrated here from the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, East Baltic blood from Eastern Europe, Nordic blood through various waves of Nordic comers. The northern Albanian Mirdit tribe, on the one hand, and the southern Albanians on the other, would seem to have a fairly strong Nordic strain; the same strain can be seen among the Serbs and the Slovenes.12 Through Albanian settlement Dinaric blood has come into Calabria (southern Italy); while these Albanians are said, too, to show a slight Nordic strain."
A passage from Hans Gunther.
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with
Lexluther Registered User
Posts: 5
(9/8/07 10:35 pm)
Re: Do you believe this to be true?
I think this could be true but the origin of the Albanic population is the caucasus, actually
Re: Do you believe this to be true?
Yes is true Novi Pazar...probality there are Noric (Nordido-Dinaric)...I Yesterdey have been in Librazhd City (South Albania)...majority of people there were Dinarics and with huge of Noric traits.
Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator
Posts: 7499
(9/9/07 1:18 pm)
Re: AT
"Yes is true Novi Pazar...probality there are Noric (Nordido-Dinaric)...I Yesterdey have been in Librazhd City (South Albania)...majority of people there were Dinarics and with huge of Noric traits."
Really interesting AT, l've also seen some pictures posted by our resident Albanian members, where the people within do show some Nordic traits blended with Dinaric as you say, no joke, l've also seen to my surprise some clearly pure Nordics from those pictures.
The only ever pure Nordic Serbian l've ever seen, in real life, to my amazement, that is why l have quoted Hans Gunther, of a girl at my friends slava where she looked so Northern European like she was from sweeden, narrow face, very dolichocephalic head, biggest occupt, blond, blue eyed, pale milky skin. She must of had a C.I of around 70 and l thought me and my brothers are unusal for serbs (C.I between 72 to 75). The rest of her family where pure Dinarics
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
&
"Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there and now and then. Manners are what vex or smooth, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they support them, or they totally destroy them."
Re: AT
sorry I wrotet wrong Librazh is in central Albania...in South Albania i never been yet.
Novi nordid serbs what i have seen probality are East Baltics like your nacioanlist Vojsllav Sesejl...while among albanians people probality are like danish/English (sometime like Falid).
But in Albania those nordic are not really puro Nordid but mix Dinarido-Nordid (Noric) example is Igli Tare (Lacio player) or Genc Pollo (Minister of Albania)...both are from South Albania.
Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator
Posts: 7502
(9/10/07 1:54 am)
Re: AT
^ your probably right, but as Gunther says nordic strain can be seen within them. He also says that a East Baltic strain is evident in Albania too, if you read above correctly.
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
&
"Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there and now and then. Manners are what vex or smooth, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they support them, or they totally destroy them."
- Edmund Burke; Letters on a Regicide Peace, 1797
Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator
Posts: 7511
(9/10/07 12:48 pm)
Re: AT
AT, your most likely correct in what you say. I found this from the snpa site which was a good read.
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
&
"Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there and now and then. Manners are what vex or smooth, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they support them, or they totally destroy them."
Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator
Posts: 7512
(9/10/07 12:54 pm)
Re: AT
"In Greece the Dinarids predominate only in the western part. Toward the northeast more East-Mediterraneans are found. On the Aegean islands we often encounter a rather primitive, dark, long- and low-skulled strain, probably of the Berid race. Likewise there are in Greece blond individuals, both of the Nordid and also the East Baltid race."
Something that came as a surprise was the mentioning of East Baltid race in Greece!.
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
&
"Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there and now and then. Manners are what vex or smooth, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they support them, or they totally destroy them."
- Edmund Burke; Letters on a Regicide Peace, 1797
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 10232
(9/11/07 12:01 pm)
Re: Do you believe this to be true?
Surprised nothing is said about the Croats. With the exception of Slovenes, I'd guess they be most influenced by Nordic elements.
Pure Nordics are probably a rare phenomenon in the Balkans as a whole. In Northern Albania, 'pure' Nordic phenotypes may occasionally be seen, especially in Luma. In Kosova, I've seen people who I think could pass as Nordics. But being that I am not a professional anthropologist, it is occasionally hard to differentiate between the Nordic phenotype and various subtypes which are mixed with Upper Palaeolithic survivors, such as Faelids and others. Thus this one time, I visited a village near Prishtina. It was the village of my aunt's husband. Every individual I saw was blonde. The father of my aunt's husband looked Nordic as well; he was nearly 2 metres tall, blue eyes, long narrow face, but also a heavily built body ... which could suggest UP blood.
The Albanian anthropologist Aleksandėr Dhima noticed that the highest frequency of blonde hair in Albania was the north, particularly the highlands adjacent to Shkodra and Mirdita, as well as Myzeqeja (western Albania -- a lowland following the Adriatic down to Fier) & Cermenika, which is near Librazhd which was described above.
As for Mirdita in particular, I've never been there. But I have been in Bishtazhin, which is a village in Kosova comprised by Mirditor settlers who came in the 19th century -- all Catholic. I did not see Nordics there ... nor did I see much blondes that I recall. They were simply dinarics, though a great majority had blue eyes for some reason.
P:s Indeed the presence of light pigmentation in Southern Albania is something extraordinary, and puts the Tosks in great contrast to their southern Greek neighbours,
Shqipėria ka qenė
dhe do tė jetė,
po sot nė ditėt tona
tė metė tė mos ketė.
E ka nderuar Zoti
gjithėnjė Shqipėrinė
ish fort mirė qėmoti,
do bėhet dhe taninė.
Naim Frashėri
Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator
Posts: 7524
(9/11/07 12:39 pm)
Re: Dijedon
^ a good detailed post .....l can't remember exactly, but l've read somewhere that there is clan? in Albania who trace their origins somewhere in Germany?
I might actually look for it, and if l find it, l will post it here.
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
&
"Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there and now and then. Manners are what vex or smooth, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they support them, or they totally destroy them."
Quote:a good detailed post .....l can't remember exactly, but l've read somewhere that there is clan? in Albania who trace their origins somewhere in Germany?
maybe you think about Dukagjini tribes...those were just hypoteze...another theory is that Dukagjins are descedands of Troyans.
Re: Dijedon
Novi you mean about this article, i think? >>>
---------------------------------
7. The Dukagjinis
Fifteenth-century Turkish chroniclers called the Dukagjinis "princes of German origin." Whether this is true or not is difficult to ascertain. Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) claim that the Dukagjinis were known as the Dukagjinis of Arbania in the seventh century and ruled over the Albanian part of Montenegro (Piperi, Vasojevich, Podgorica and Kuchi, i.e. Zeta). They apparently rose in revolt against the Slavic invaders but were put down by Bosnian chieftains. In 695 they attempted to interfere in domestic Ragusan issues but were repulsed again and submitted to the local Slavic leaders. Their pride and self-confidence hindered them from creating family ties with the Slavs whom they regarded as below their dignity. As the Chronicle puts it: "compari per sempre non accattarono che infra loro." (13)
In his testament, Gjon Muzhaka writes with great fantasy on the origins of the Dukagjinis, alleging that they stemmed from Troy and emigrated to France. Two brothers from this dynasty, on the other hand, are thought to have emigrated to Italy during the Crusades. One of them is said to have been the founder of the Este dynasty, the other returned and settled in Zadrima near Shkodra and founded the Dukagjinis.
Closest to the truth in this tangled net of fables and legends is, in our view, the report of a Byzantine chronicler of the seventh century. He states that at the end of the fifth century, a tribe of Goths under their leader Duke Gentius (or Genusius or Gjin) penetrated into the Shkodra region from Dalmatia and settle there. Compelled to react to this new reality, the Byzantine Emperor made Gjin his Sebastocrator, also calling him a magister militum from Dalmatia. This Gentius is said to have set up a realm between Shkodra and Durrės, (14) which proved to be to the liking of the rural population because it adapted Gothic laws to those of the local tribes. The connection of the name Dukagjini to the code of customary law in the Albanian mountains, the so-called Canon or Kanun of Lekė Dukagjini, would seem to derive from this, such that the Goth in question may be regarded as the ancestor of the Dukagjinis. This, at least, would seem more likely than the above-mentioned legends.
The title duke (dux) with no reference to any particular region appears for the first time in 1281, the year in which Gjin Tanushi appeared as "ducem Ginum Tanuschum."
The territory of the Dukagjini family stretched from the left bank of the Drin river near Lezha (Alessio) to the source of the Fan river. In the fifteenth century, there were two well-known branches of this family: a northerly one under Paul Dukagjini had expanded beyond the above-mentioned border to become lords of the tribal region of Gashi, Krasniqi and of the lands of Peja (Ipek) and Gjakova. Paul's son was Lekė Dukagjini who resided in Vulpiani or Ulpiana (near Prishtina). The southern branch of the family were rulers of the regions of Lezha, Zadrima, Puka, Selita, Zhuba and Mirdita. They resided in the castle of Lezha which was peacefully handed over to Venice in 1393.
In the thirteenth century, we come across the tribal leader, Tanush Dukagjini, who had two sons, Gin and Progon, lords of Zadrima.
In the fourteenth century, chroniclers also mention the two sons of Progon, Paul and Leka as lords of Zadrima. Two of their descendants, George, Lord of Zadrima, and Tanush, Lord of Fan (who was perhaps an ancestor of the Gjonmarkaj?), left many sons at the time of Scanderbeg, who all played roles in the national resistance against the Turks. The Dukagjinis and the neighbouring Balshas, fought many a battle with one another for power and land until the Balshas lost out and their common foe, the Ottomans, seized the country.
Even after the Turkish conquest of the country, the descendants of this dynasty continued to enjoy the fame of the Dukagjinis. Unfortunately, we do not know much about the various branches of the dynasty that remained in Albania. What is for sure is, as mentioned, that the house of Dukagjini had split into two main branches by the time of the invasion. The Turks seem to have had contact by 1433 with the branch that settled in Zadrima. "In the north of the county, (15) The sultan appointed Hasan Bey to watch over the Albanian lords and Venetian territories," say the Turkish chroniclers of the time. "When the Albanians rose in revolt against the Turks in 1433, Nicholas I Dukagjini, the brother of Tanush IV, drove the Turkish occupiers from Dagno (Deja). But Venice, which wanted at all costs to avoid a rupture in relations with the Porte, and therefore maintained good relations with Hasan Bey, ordered its governor in Shkodra to support the Turks against attack from the Dukagjinis." (16) When war subsequently broke out between Scanderbeg and Venice, we find the Dukagjinis on the side of the Albanian national hero. The Dukagjini wrath at Venice was not over yet. One scion of the house of Dukagjini, called Paul, refused to make peace with Venice and sign the peace agreement that Scanderbeg had worked out with the Republic in 1448. This stance was perhaps one of the reasons why Paul Dukagjini pursued pro-Turkish policies from that time on, and sent two of his sons to the sultan as a pledge.
Turkish chroniclers of the period describe the event as follows: "Duka in Albanian means a Bey. Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror - Allah be merciful to him - learned that the Duke (Duka) of Menobar (?, or Minevbur) had two splendid sons. In his illustrious mind, the noble sultan thought to himself: 'What a gain it would be for the Empire and the Faith if these two incomparable princes were to become good Muslims.' The sultan's divine inspiration gave rise to the flight of these two stars in the vaults of the Albanian heaven to Constantinople. They prostrated themselves before the sultan's feet and converted, taking the names Ahmed and Mahmud, and were taken in by the imperial pages."
We know that these two lads belonged to the house of Dukagjini, "that Mahmud died of natural causes soon thereafter and Ahmed Bey had an illustrious career in the service of the Ottoman Empire. He became a vizier during the reign of Sultan Selim I, but fell in the year 920 (1514) in the Battle of Amasja. His son, Mehmet Pasha, achieved high rank in the palace and State functions. He was Beylerbey of Aleppo in 957 (1550), Vali of Egypt in 961 (1554), and died in 964 (1556). He was married to Cevher Muluk, the daughter of Sultan Bayezid II. In the course of Ottoman history we come across many other high dignitaries stemming from this branch of the Dukagjini dynasty." (17)
Later, part of the dynasty settled in Aleppo where the Dukagjinis still have land and are now Arabs. Yet they still carry the name Dukagjin-zade.
As to the members of the Dukagjin family who fled to Italy after the Turkish conquest, we know only that some of them are buried in Naples and many noble Italian families in Rome, rightly or wrongly, regard themselves as their descendants. We feel obliged in this respect to include some details about the connections between the Dukagjinis and Albanian customary law, though these may lead to false conclusions and are actually beyond the scope of our study here.
Albanian customary law, the Canon of Lekė Dukagjini, or more properly its codification, is often and quite without factual basis attributed to Lekė, the son of Paul Dukagjini. The similarity between Lekė Dukagjini and the Canon of Lekė Dukagjini has led to the erroneous assumption that Lekė Dukagjini was the founder of Albanian customary law. Lekė Dukagjini was certainly an influential figure with a large body of followers, and played an important role in his country at the time. He was primarily a fighter, and a stubborn one at that. But no one would ever have called him an expert in jurisprudence. In his book L'Albanie et l'invasion turque au XV. sičcle, Paris 1937, page 15, the Albanian historian Athanas Gegaj wrote: "Leka is no doubt one of the best-known members of the Dukagjini family. He was a foe of Venice and of Scanderbeg. His opposition to both only increased after the events leading to the capture of Dagno (Deja). He was the son of Paul Dukagjini, and was energetic and foolhardy. He was a much-feared foe of the Turks, a talented organizer and perhaps an expert in customary law." But all tribal leaders knew the stipulations of the Canon. That he had more to do wit the Canon than this is unlikely.
********************************
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 10238
(9/12/07 12:41 pm)
Re: Dijedon
Dukagjini isn't a clan. It was a noble family who gave their name to the mountainous region of Dukagjin in Northern Albania. For some reason, Western Kosova is also known as Dukagjin by Albanians. There are speculations pertaining to the ethnic origins of the Dukagjini family. Likewise, there are speculations concerning the ethnic affiliation of the Balsha noble family (Balsici in Serbian) who were reputed to have been of Norman origins.
Whether the Dukagjini family were Norman or German in origin is disputed. Its name, however, comes from the title duca (duke) and the typical Catholic Albanian name Gjin.
Re: Dijedon
There is a village near Prizren, "Zhur" and it belong to Luma,people say that people of Zhur are of Raca Austriak, i donno why they say like that.
Dijedon, Dukagjin is indeed north east albania and west Kosova,when people from Dukagjin use to talk about people from east Kosova they used Kosovars but when they were talkin about west they use to say people from Dukagjini,my grand dad used to describe like that.
Forum Emperor!(Balkan Papa)
Posts: 5785
(9/12/07 6:53 pm)
Re: Dijedon
Let me introduce this relevent subject to the topic at hand.
In pre-ottoman times there were saxon minders living in Kosovo and certainly their descandants today could have easily fused with local populations there now over time.
_________
Less Balkanian Dogmatic Paranoia. More Rational Ancient Hellenic Wisdom.
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 10240
(9/12/07 8:53 pm)
Re: Dijedon
Interesting Srok. Regarding Luma, there's a prevalence of blondism there, so that reference to the village Zhur might be a reference to the villagers' blondism. Just speculating.
Quote:In pre-ottoman times there were saxon minders living in Kosovo and certainly their descandants today could have easily fused with local populations there now over time.
Yes indeed. But the Saxon population in Kosova was never very significiant of what I know. They were mostly concentrated in Artana/Novo Brdo which was a very ethnically diverse town either way, with Albanians, Serbs, Croats, Saxons and later some Turks. The purgeri of this town probably blended in with the local population ... but I doubt they were very much represented in rural populations, where most of the blondism is to be found for some odd reason.
Shqipėria ka qenė
dhe do tė jetė,
po sot nė ditėt tona
tė metė tė mos ketė.
E ka nderuar Zoti
gjithėnjė Shqipėrinė
ish fort mirė qėmoti,
do bėhet dhe taninė.
Naim Frashėri
Novi Pazar Commanding Moderator
Posts: 7535
(9/13/07 12:41 am)
Re: aadmin
"In pre-ottoman times there were saxon minders living in Kosovo and certainly their descandants today could have easily fused with local populations there now over time."
I heard about this also, l hear some settled in today's fyrom?
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.
&
"Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them, in a great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there and now and then. Manners are what vex or smooth, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant, steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in. They give their whole form and color to our lives. According to their quality, they aid morals, they support them, or they totally destroy them."
- Edmund Burke; Letters on a Regicide Peace, 1797
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 10247
(9/13/07 12:27 pm)
Re: aadmin
Quote:I heard about this also, l hear some settled in today's fyrom?
Never heard of them settling that south. The reason for their settlement in Kosova was their reputed mining skills, which local nobles wanted to put in exercise to extract wealthy minerals in the mines of Eastern and Northern Kosova. I do not know if FYROM was or is wealthy in minerals. Saxon settlers were never really numerous in Kosova though ... certainly not to the same extent as they were in Vojvodina & Transylvania. Besides being miners, they were also deployed as soldiers; Dusan's elite lifeguard was composed, apparently, of mercenaries of German ethnicity.
.....l can't remember exactly, but l've read somewhere that there is clan? in Albania who trace their origins somewhere in Germany?
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