I say give him a chance. So far he's been alright.
superalbanian Moderator
Posts: 2611
(1/21/07 12:36 pm)
Re: ...
Thank you fender.... Stanko we claim our land because it has been ours before you even step foot on it.....
Edited by: Stankoisaserb at: 1/21/07 12:58 pm
Re: ...
Albania existed as a nation much later then Serbia. Serbia existed for centurie before Albania even existed and before Albanians even settled into the Balkans. Dont make it sound like as if you people own the Balkans.
Re: ...
Well, Albania was a name for the territory before the people were even recognized by the West as a nationality.
But it is true that Montenegro now occupies a space that my ALBANIAN family has always lived in.
If Montenegro wants to pass itself off as the multicultural tourist paradise, it has to start recognizing that Kralj Nikola and Milena don't represent all Montenegrin citizens' identities.
The Albanian flag just so happens to represent mine.
Quote:But it is true that Montenegro now occupies a space that my ALBANIAN family has always lived in.
Occupies What?? CrnaGora....
I think I know the area that your family is from(Tuzi, Hoti, Kuce, Grude...etc). Interesting because my family is from the same area. I could trace my ancestors back far, and as far as it goes, it say's nothing of being albanian...........
I really think Montenegrins, or at least Southern Montenegrins come from the same stock as Albanians, or at least Geg Albanians. If not, they have just had lots of shared culture because Old Montenegrin and Geg Albanian cultures are so similar.
Re: ...
Because Albanians expanded to the west with the Turkish invasions. Skadar used to be a Slavic city for example. One forum member used to claim that Tuzi was largely populated by Slavic Muslims even before the Albanians came. I don't how true that is, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't Albanian as far back as you'd like to think.
Re: ...
Shkodra was the seat of King Gentius and Queen Teuta before the Slavs were even close to coming to the Balkans.
Also, you have Albanians in the early 1700s moving up to Dalmatia from the area around Tivar/Bar, whose Catholic community they were presumably not new to. I infer from this that Albanians were up into Montenegro for quite some time.
The Balshajs/Balsics were neither Albanian nor Slavs (I read somewhere that they might have even come from Provence), but changed their religion, language and allegiances with the wind, so that doesn't help.
How do you explain the Albanian roots of the Kuci tribe? And the connection of Southern Montenegrin tribes with Malsor tribes?
And we get to the fundemental disagreement. I say Albanians (esp. Gegs) are the descendants of the Illyrians. You, I'm sure, disagree.
I have a book by Mark Milani about the customs of the Arbanasit, and another book by some guy Petrovic (I think) called "Pleme Kuci," but they are in Serbian and nobody in my family can read them.
I'd like to go to a Serbian-language summer school then spend several weeks in Montenegro to cement my knowledge of the language. Anybody know of any in NY?
This way, when I speak Serbian in addition to my Albanian, I'll have a leg up on all the Slav applicants to EU positions in the Balkans
Re: ...
It's something you guys always revert to "Albanians are descendants of Illyrians". That would legitimize claims to the entire Balkans. It's a little too easy. If anything, we're all descendants of Illyrians. Nevertheless, the point of this was that Tuzi was Slavic and not Albanian at least until the Turkish invasions. Thus, your ancestry does not go that far back, I personally doubt farther than the early 18th century, surely the 17th century (like most Albanians in Kosovo). If you can prove some of those Illyrians identified themselves as Albanians in any way or that there is a direct genealogical connection between them, skidam ti kapu. I mean, the progression was Illyrian - Slavic - Albanian in many areas, yet what proof is there that Albanians were direct descendants of those Illyrians. I find it much more convincing to believe the Illyrians in question were Slavicized.
Edited by: mapko at: 1/26/07 10:03 am
shpata Senior Moderator
Posts: 5962
(1/26/07 6:37 pm)
re
Quote:Because Albanians expanded to the west with the Turkish invasions. Skadar used to be a Slavic city for example. One forum member used to claim that Tuzi was largely populated by Slavic Muslims even before the Albanians came. I don't how true that is, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't Albanian as far back as you'd like to think.
1614
Mariano Bolizza:
Report and Description of the Sanjak of Shkodra Mariano Bolizza of Kotor was a public servant of the Republic of Venice. The main objective of his report and description of the Sanjak of Shkodra was to provide information on the land routes which could best be utilized by local couriers conveying official correspondence from Venice to Constantinople and back, and to survey the military potential of the territory. He provides a surprisingly detailed overview of towns and villages in Montenegro and northern Albania in the early seventeenth century, and of the struggle of the Ottoman authorities to put down a rebellion of the fierce and independent-minded Kelmendi tribe.
Quote:We continue here with the villages.
60 houses - Daibabe (Dajbaba),
commanded by Dabaz Vuchssin (Dabac Vuksin),
140 men in arms;
67 houses - Goriciani ( Gorican),
commanded by Vulatco Peiou (Vulatko Pejov),
130 men in arms;
80 houses - Gargli (Garlji),
commanded by Vuco Juuanou (Vuko Juvanov),
185 men in arms;
100 houses - Golubouaz (Golubovci),
commanded by Nixa Lachiceu (Nika Lakicev),
245 men in arms;
30 houses - Curillo (Kurilo),
commanded by Daio Nicellizin (Dajo Nicelicin),
78 men in arms;
25 houses - Carabesse (Karabes),
commanded by Nico Paiou (Niko Pajov),
40 men in arms;
80 houses - Plauniza (Plavnica),
commanded by Nico Raizeu (Niko Rajcev),
220 men in arms;
70 houses - Gostigli (Gostilje),
commanded by Rado Strepeou (Rado Strepejov),
200 men in arms;
40 houses - Moranouich (Moranovic),
commanded by Dabro Marcou (Dabro Markov),
95 men in arms;
70 houses - Bischian (Biskjan),
commanded by Pavich Jouanou (Pavic Jovanov),
177 men in arms;
45 houses - Vuragn (Vran),
commanded by Peio Nixin (Pejo Niksin),
97 men in arms;
57 houses - Samaris (Samaris),
commanded by Brato Mipou (Brato Mipov),
170 men in arms;
30 houses - Beris Lauzi (Berislavci),
commanded by Rado Nicou (Rado Nikov),
79 men in arms;
40 houses - Slatiza (Slatica),
commanded by Lassa Paiof (Lasa Pajov), nephew of the priest Radagna (Radonja),
100 men in arms;
60 houses - Vuladni ( Vladnja),
commanded by Andrin,
130 men in arms;
40 houses - Grudde (Gruda),
commanded by Gassan Gergelou (Hasan Gerdzelov),
100 men in arms; 30 houses - Tusi (Tuz),
commanded by Gie Giecco (Gje Gjeko),
70 men in arms.
does gje gjeko sound orthodox or bosnian turk name?? if not shut the f up!!!!!
now the highland tribes
Quote:The Serbian or Greek villages are:
50 houses - Riouzi (Riovci),
commanded by Juanis Rodognin (Ivan Rodonjin),
120 men in arms;
360 houses - Bielopaulichi (Bjelopavlici),
commanded by Neneza Latinovich (Neneca Latinovic) and Bratich Tomasevich (Bratic Tomasevic),
800 men in arms;
270 houses - Piperi (Piper),
commanded by Raoslau Bosidanou (Raoslav Bosidanov),
700 men in arms;
87 houses - Bratanosich (Bratanosic),
commanded by Stanoie Radognin (Stanoje Radonjin),
260 men in arms;
90 houses - Vassoevich (Vasojevic),
commanded by Nicolla Hotaseu (Nikolla Hotasev) and Lale Boiof (Lale Bojov),
280 men in arms.
Of Roman rite are:
490 houses - Chuzzi Albanesi (Albanian Kuçi),
commanded by Lale Drecalou (Lale Drekalov) and Nico Raizcou (Niko Rajckov),
a very warlike and brave people,
1,500 men in arms;
178 houses - Climenti (Kelmendi),
commanded by Smail Prentaseu (Smail Prentashev) and Pedda Sucha (Peda Suka),
an untiring, valorous and extremely rapacious people,
650 men in arms;
80 houses - Rapsa (Rapsha),
commanded by Prenc Castrat (Prenk Kastrati),
260 men in arms;
212 houses - Hotti (Hoti),
commanded by Maras Pappa (Marash Papa),
600 men in arms;
30 houses - Scariglia (Shkreli),
commanded by Messa Porubba (Mesa Poruba),
80 men in arms;
50 houses - Castrati (Kastrati),
commanded by Prenc Bitti (Prenk Biti),
130 men in arms.
Re: re
17th century is still after the Turkish invasions... but alright, perhaps the Albanian presence goes back further than I initially thought
shpata Senior Moderator
Posts: 5966
(1/26/07 9:02 pm)
re
^theyre catholic. to suggest an expansion through turkish help is not very realistic.
also the tribes from herzegovania and bosnia came only a century earlier from this report of 1614. and this migration also involved the serb highland tribes aswell like vasojevic and piperi. so some slavs of montengro are new comers.
kuchi turns slavophone after this migration which suggests slavs in the area of discussion are the newcomer. otherwise kuchi would have been slavic to begin with.
on the other hand there was an alb migration twards north as turks ravaged north albania in late 1400s to early 1500s. beljopavlic originates of immigrants from dukagjin area. they became slavs suggests they settled among slavs.
but theres was no alb expansion twards montengro during conversion to islam. only twards kosovo and sandzak which is not really montengro.
at: 1/21/07 12:58 pm
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies 
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies