Quote:theyre catholic. to suggest an expansion through turkish help is not very realistic.
Would that mean that the Albanian expansion in Kosovo was by virtue of Turkish help?
Quote:also the tribes from herzegovania and bosnia came only a century earlier from this report of 1614. and this migration also involved the serb highland tribes aswell like vasojevic and piperi.
I can corroborate this actually. My farthest known ancestor settled in Piperi during the early 1500s. He came from eastern Serbia though, not Bosnia or Herzegovina.
shpata Senior Moderator
Posts: 5968
(1/26/07 9:35 pm)
re
Quote:Would that mean that the Albanian expansion in Kosovo was by virtue of Turkish help?
indirectly yes. turkish laws didnt allow serb peasants much autonomy as chrisitians. they were not well armed either. it was easy for alb tribesman to take land away from them. not to mention the depopulation events in late 17th and early 18th century.
also many local rulers in kosovo were alb muslims, im sure they played a role in the expansion into kosovo.
Quote:I really think Montenegrins, or at least Southern Montenegrins come from the same stock as Albanians, or at least Geg Albanians. If not, they have just had lots of shared culture because Old Montenegrin and Geg Albanian cultures are so similar.
I would definitely have to agree with you on that one....very similar
However again, I've seen dates as far back as the 1000's with Montenegrins presence in Fundina, Kuce....etc. I know also because I'm from Kuce in CrnaGora
Shpata....don't forget the russification of mailsori also
Honorary Member XMod
Posts: 4044
(1/29/07 5:36 am)
Re: hmm
Quote:However again, I've seen dates as far back as the 1000's with Montenegrins presence in Fundina, Kuce....etc. I know also because I'm from Kuce in CrnaGora
Same here.
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 8975
(1/29/07 4:38 pm)
Re: hmm
Shkodra a Slav city? LOL! Occupied by Slavs, yes. But it is an ancient Albanian-Illyrian city. Even the evolution of the toponym Shkodra, in relation to the original form Scodra used during Roman times, is in accordance with the phonetical laws of Albanian as demonstrated on numerous occasions by trained linguists. Skadar is a later corruption of Shkodra.
During the middle age, the city came under certain Slav influence with the rise of Slav kingdoms and principalities. But the Shkodra region was still predominantly Albanian inhabited. The presence of some Slav toponyms, however, show that Slavs were present here too. This goes back to the 600 century AD, during the Slav invasion. The Albanian population and the Vlachs were pushed to higher grounds by these invasions. The city in itself was probably mixed. In thr 1300s, the Serbs controlled the city; Stephen Dusan was based there when his father, Decanski, was still alive. From there, with an army of Albanians and Serbs, Dusan turned against his own father and defeated him at Nerodimlje, Kosova; his father was pursued, imprisoned and later strangled, which lead to Dusan's coronation 1331.
In the later half of the 1300s, after Dusan's creation dissolved into numerous smaller states, the Balsha family overtook the rule in Shkodra. Their origins have been a matter of dispute, though I am confident they were Albanian. The Ottomans, for instance, called George II Balsha the "ruler of Albanians". The Hungarian emperor Sigismund personally met George II Balsha in Ulqin/Ulcinj, and gave him the title "Prince of Albania" (source; 'Acta e diplomata Res Albaniae Mediae Aetatis Illustrantia, Vindobonae 1918'). Konstantin the Philosopher, a Bulgarian who lived and worked at the court of Stephen Lazarevic, also called George II Balsha "Albanian"; the same he did to his son, Balsha III, even though his mother was a Serbian princess (source; 'Konstandin Filozof i njegof zivot Stefana Lazarevica despota srpskog' by V.Jagic). The Albanian chronicler, Marin Barleti, also referred to the Balshaj dynasty as Albanian; Scanderbeg was related to John and George Stres Balsha. In a ragusan document, a reference is made to "the Albanian traditions of the Balsha" (source; 'Pisma i uputstva Dubrovacke Republike' by I.Tadic). Something that also needs to be noted is that the Balsha ditched Slav terms for noble titles, like knjaz, zupan or kralj. Instead they were replaced by Latin terms like dominus, duca, princeps etc. Catholicism was embraced. And noble Serb symbols were replaced by new symbols, like the mountain wolf.
Either way, the Albanian presence in the Shkodra vicinity was continuous. A reference for instance was made to a noble called Alex Castratius in the Shkodra region. His surname indicates that he was a member of the Kastrati clan, as I am. As for Tuzi; Shpata made a good case. Tuzi is seen as a part of Hoti and Trieshi, and the Hoti clan was present in its current territories for a long time; a reference is made on them in a Serb document in the 1330s.
If Shkodra was a Slav city, where did its Slav population go? In the 1400s and 1500s, the Ottomans registrated the population of the Shkodra sanjak, which included much of NW Albania and Monenegro. The regions precisely around Shkodra were predominantly Catholic Albanian in anthroponyms (personal names) like Gjon, Gjin, Leka, Bushat etc. The further north, the more common Slav names become.
Finally, if indeed the city was Slav before the arrival of the Turks, then how can we explain that the Shkodran refugees who fled to Venice after the fall of Shkodra 1478 at the hands of the Ottomans, were Albanian? One example being the warrior-priest and historian Marin Barleti who participated in the defence and wrote about the siege in his book called 'De obsidione Scodransi', 1504. No Slav refugees are mentioned in Barleti's accounts or in Venetian documents! Edited by: Stankoisaserb at: 1/30/07 3:13 am
Re: hmm
Dijedon......wasn't this posted by yourself already
I have family in Skadar and have had them there for ages now, and if I'm not mistaken, there is a fairly recognizable population of Serbs
Ej Partisan, Jesi bio koji put tamo?
shpata Senior Moderator
Posts: 6007
(1/30/07 1:05 am)
re
Quote: have family in Skadar and have had them there for ages now, and if I'm not mistaken, there is a fairly recognizable population of Serbs
youre farting. how recognizable are they really? tell me a neighborhood in shkodra where ill walk into the streets and here serb language, serb stores and other basic institutions any recognizable community has.
the funniest part is even the gypsies would outnumber them by at least 30 to 1.
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 8976
(1/30/07 1:12 am)
Re: hmm
As I wrote above, Shkodra fell in 1478 after a heroic resistance lead by Antonio Loredano, a Venetian soldier and general. Immediately, the territories around Shkodra were reduced to an Ottoman province, or sanjak, called the Shkodra sanjak. In 1485, seven years after the city's capture, the sanjak's population was registered and the results were gathered in a so called defter.
This defter allows us to see the ethnic composition of the sanjak, and it also allows us to debunk this myth that Shkodra was Slav.
A sanjak was an administrative unit which in turn was divided into smaller units called nahiye. Thus the Shkodra sanjak was composed by the nahiyes of Shkodra and the immediate vicinity, Drisht (Drivasto/um), Northeast side of Lake Shkodra, Southwest side of Lake Shkodra, Shestan, Merkod, Zabljak, Petrishpan (named after the noble Pjeter Spani), Kelmend, Hot and Kuci etc.
This sanjak includes anthroponyms from two spheres; the Catholic Albanian and the Orthodox Slav. Typical names of the former were Leka, Progon, Gjon, Lulo, Mazarak, Bardo, Kola, Tanush, Bushat, Pal, Kal, Ulk, Duka etc. Typical names of the latter were Bozidar, Radoslav, Radonja, Branko, Brajan, Rajko, Mladen, Zivko, Djuro, Bogdan, Nenko, Milos etc.
The villages in the sanjak could be divided into four different categories; villages with only Albanian names, villages with predominanlty Albanian names, villages with only Slav names and villages with predominantly Slav names.
In the nahiye of Shkodra, there were some 83 villages; of these, some 41 villages were comprised by inhabitants with only Albanian names; some 42 villages were comprised by people with predominantly Albanian names and a minority of Slav names. Not one single village with only or predominantly Slav names.
In Drisht, there were some 3 villages with only Albanian names and 9 villages with predominantly Albanian names.
Northeast side; 5 villages with predominantly Albanian names.
Southwest side; 4 villages with predominantly Albanian names and 1 village with predominantly Slav names.
Mountains of Shestan; 5 villages of only Albanian names, 5 villages with predominantly Albanian names and 1 village with predominantly Slav names.
Kuci; 6 villages with predominantly Albanian names and 2 villages with predominantly Slav names.
Petrishpan; 8 villages with only Albanian names and 22 villages with predominantly Albanian names.
Kelmend; 2 villages with predominantly Albanian names.
Mountains of Hoti; 8 villages with predominantly Albanian names and 1 village with predominantly Slav names.
Zabljak; 3 villages with only Slav names, 9 villages with predominantly Albanian names and 6 villages with predominantly Slav names.
Merkod; 1 village, 50/50.
One thing which you must consider, is that in the nahiyes of Shkodra, Drisht and Hoti, people with Slav names were not necessarely Slavs. Infact, they were most probably Abanians too. Why? Well, in villages where Albanian names predominate, you did not have special quarteers for Slavs; the population was mixed. An example; in the village of Pantalesh, you had one Vukach (Slav) who is the son of Lula Lopari (typical Albanian name). In Hoti, you have another example in the village of Mihalina. There lived the brothers Bojko (Slav), Gjon (Albanian), Margjin (Albanian), Goja (?), Petri (Albanian), Bogo (Slav), Mesi (Albanian) and Petra/Petar (Slav?), sons of Mihail.
What do you get out of this? Well, it is not hard to explain. These people were Albanian who had been under continuous Slav influence. For instance, Shkodra was made the capital of the kingdom of Duklja by King Jovan Vladimir in the 1000s. Later on, the Serb king of Rascia, Stefan Nemanja, siezed Shkodra. Our northern territories were under constant Slav Othodox influence later on, culminating with the rule of Stefan Dusan, Nemanja's descendant. He made the infamous law entitled "Dusanova Zakonik" which persecuted Catholics. Naturally, many converted to Orthodoxy, and the influence, such as that in anthroponyms, remained. This is why fathers named Progon could have sons named Nenko.
Another strong indicator is the fact that the Slav names found in much of Albania are written in an Albanian form, showing that the bearers could not have been Slav; Lazër or Lazor instead of Lazar ... in our language, names too have definite and undefinite articles; many of the Orthodox Slav names are written in our language's definite form which shows that these people were not Slav; Dimitri instead of Dimitar, Petri instead of Petar or Petr, Aleksi instead of Aleks, Radi for Rad, Djordji instead of Djordje, Rajkoja for Rajko, Vojkoja instead of Vojko, Vojnoja instead of Vojno, Vukja instead of Vuk, Bozja instead of Bozo, Vladoja for Vlado etc.
Even today this influence lives on, in names like Vuksan. But the fall of the Serbian kingdom halted the Slavization process. What is funny is that Albanian anthroponyms were not absent in any Montenegrin nahiye, reaching Bihor and Herzegovina.
P:S regardng Tuzi, the town got its name after Lesh Tuzi who was mentioned in 1335 as a chieftain.
Re: re
I remember having this discussion before actually. Skadar was a Slavic city during the Middle Ages. I think you, shpata, admitted as much. It's tough to admit, Dijedon, I know and you can just keep pulling $hit out of your a$$. Slavs are not claiming the city today, but I can't believe how hard it is for thick-headed Albanian peasants to admit so much as the city being Slavic for hundreds of years during the middle ages.
Quote:The city in itself was probably mixed.
I guess this is as much as you're willing to admit.
Quote:the Balsha family overtook the rule in Shkodra. Their origins have been a matter of dispute, though I am confident they were Albanian.
I am confident you're a fuking idiot. This is comparable to Serbs claiming Skanderbeg was Serbian. Grow up!
Quote:This defter allows us to see the ethnic composition of the sanjak, and it also allows us to debunk this myth that Shkodra was Slav.
Your whole argument is premised on what things were like in the 15th century, not from the 7th-13th centuries.
Edited by: mapko at: 1/30/07 1:19 am
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 8977
(1/30/07 1:30 am)
Re: re
Ah. A brdjanin calling me a peasant? And I am a fvking idiot? Hahaha. Go herd some sheep.
Quote:Slavs are not claiming the city today
Not claiming land does not excuse being a moron and distorting history.
Quote:This is comparable to Serbs claiming Skanderbeg was Serbian. Grow up!
Not at all. I am stating my beliefs and backing them up with sources. You are welcome to refute them if you can. Unless Balsha is Serbia's national hero and also fought for Serbia's liberation ... !?
Quote:Skadar was a Slavic city during the Middle Ages
And I am the one pulling things out of my a*ss, lol? Where are the sources? I cited my sources, you do the same. Shkodra was not a Slav city just because you say so.
Quote:Your whole argument is premised on what things were like in the 15th century, not from the 7th-13th centuries.
So you admit being wrong on us only being present in those territpries after the Ottoman conquest? No apology needed my student, I forgive you. Just make sure you learn before opening that mouth.
Shkodra never fell in Slav hands in the 7th century. It was not incorporated by a Slav state until the 1000s. Just because it was ruled by Vladimir does not mean the city was Slav. If it was, alongside with the vicinity which you also claim, then where were these Slavs during the siege of Shkodra? No mention of them is made, even though this was only about a century after the dissolution of Dusan's kingdom. I doubt the Slav element could have been assimilated or expelled so quickly. Not when they were so established. It all points to one direction; the Slav element was weak in these territories. Infact, our presence stretched much further north than Shkodra.
The city itself might have had a Latin population .. but a Slav majority? Pfft.
P:S I can understand, however, being that you are a Montenegrin and all, that Shkodra is a sensitive topic for you. I mean why would your kings want a foreign city as their capital ... had Nikola gotten his way, Podgorica would have been a mere village. So you need justification.
Edited by: Stankoisaserb at: 1/30/07 3:13 am
Quote: Ah. A brdjanin calling me a peasant? And I am a fvking idiot? Hahaha. Go herd some sheep.
You don't know much about me Dijedon. My male ancestry is from the Brda, but I was born in Toronto and raised in Sarajevo. My parents were both born and raised in Sarajevo. My paternal grandfather was born in Podgorica, which is on the primitive side I suppose but he was university-educated in Belgrade. My paternal great-grandfather was born in the Brda, so I suppose on that basis you may call me a brdjanin. It's far fetched but whatever. Through other lineages I am preceded by 4 university educated generations. I can call you a peasant. You're a Kosovo Albanian for heaven's sake, you should be mindful of your place in civilization.
Quote:You are welcome to refute them if you can. Unless Balsha is Serbia's national hero and also fought for Serbia's liberation ... !?
What exactly is there to refute? Balsha was the ruler of Zeta in the 14th century. I suppose Zeta was ruled by an Albanian now. It's so obviously ridiculous I would be wasting my team refuting something like that to an arrogant peasant.
Quote:
Shkodra was not a Slav city just because you say so.
Nor was it an Albanian city throughout because you can suggest some demographics of it during the 15th century. DAI describes the city as being given to the Serbs in the 7th century. Duklja, the first Slavic kingdom, was founded around Skadar. Skadar would be the centre of this Slavic kingdom for centuries after. Albanian tribes did frequently attack the city. By the 15th century they presumably overpopulated it. Logic dictates that it was populated mostly by Slavs. Just like logic dictates that the ruler of Zeta could not be an Albanian.
Quote:So you admit being wrong on us only being present in those territpries after the Ottoman conquest?
Sure, if you can admit that it was a Slavic city for a good period time before that.
Quote:
No apology needed my student, I forgive you. Just make sure you learn before opening that mouth.
Have you even finished any notable level of school? I have a sneaky feeling you're a construction worker obsessed with Albanian-related history.
Quote:I mean why would your kings want a foreign city as their capital
Because he could have it... and because there was a desire to revert to controlling some of the same medieval Slavic centres at that time... much like Serbia with Kosovo I suppose..
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 8978
(1/30/07 11:17 pm)
Re: re
Quote:You don't know much about me Dijedon.
Neither do you know me, yet nevertheless it did not hinder you to assume that I was a 'peasant', which is totally untrue. While you might have been born in Toronto, you were still raised in Sarajevo. A nice city indeed, no question. But since the age of three, I have lived in Stockholm (first three yrs I lived in Prishtina, where I was born), the capital of Sweden and the Scandinavian equivalent of Venice; I would assume, a little better than Sarajevo.
You bringing up your predecessors just reveals your peasant-like mind, which cannot be camouflaged by a 'noble' origin; instead of speaking of yourself, you speak of your grandfathers ... who most probably were seljaks despite their education. They were, afterall, from Brda. Since you want to speak education, you might want to know that both my father and mother have higher education; my father studied in Zagreb and my mother in Prishtina. My paternal grandfather studied in Kraljevo and was one of the main men in Trepca. My maternal grandfather is a professor in linguistics.
Quote:I can call you a peasant
And I can call you a shepherd. Really, a Montenegrin calling others 'peasants' is ridiculous. Peasantry in itself is not negative; it was the origin of civilization. It is peasants trying to impose their peasant-mentality upon others and deny their own origins that is an ugly trait.
Quote:You're a Kosovo Albanian for heaven's sake, you should be mindful of your place in civilization.
And you of your place, as the Montenegrin seljak you are. Those four educated generations that preceeded you were of Austrian and Croat blood; nothing to do with Montenegro, lol. Go climb a mountain now.
Quote:What exactly is there to refute? Balsha was the ruler of Zeta in the 14th century. I suppose Zeta was ruled by an Albanian now. It's so obviously ridiculous I would be wasting my team refuting something like that to an arrogant peasant.
Firstly, nice that you spell the name correctly. Balsic sounds horrible.
Secondly, most of the territories under Balsha rule were in Albania, not Zeta.
Quote:Nor was it an Albanian city throughout because you can suggest some demographics of it during the 15th century. DAI describes the city as being given to the Serbs in the 7th century. Duklja, the first Slavic kingdom, was founded around Skadar. Skadar would be the centre of this Slavic kingdom for centuries after. Albanian tribes did frequently attack the city. By the 15th century they presumably overpopulated it. Logic dictates that it was populated mostly by Slavs. Just like logic dictates that the ruler of Zeta could not be an Albanian.
Quotes? The city itself was probably Latin-dominated for most of its early medieval history. Documents, as Suliot wrote, speak of this. And Duklja was not founded 'around Shkodra'; unless you mean to the north of the city. Only in the 1000s did Jovan Vladimir sieze the city ... yet that did not necessarely change the ethnographic composition in the city. Atleast there are no evidence of such nature.
Finally, if Shkodra and the vicinity indeed were predominantly Slav-inhabited, like Kosova was, I am sure that a majority of toponyms (placenames) would have been Slav. Below follow the names of the villages registered around Shkodra 1485. I will highlight the toponyms that are Slav;
In total 60 Albanian place-names, 15 Slav place-names and 12 questionable toponyms.
Toponyms suceeded by a question mark are probably Vlach. As you can see, Albanian toponyms compose the vaste majority. The presence of Slav place-names suggest that a Slav minority was settled ... but if Shkodra and the vicinity were predominantly Slav for centuries, as you claim, then the majority of place-names would have been Slav, like in Kosova .
Quote:Sure, if you can admit that it was a Slavic city for a good period time before that.
You cannot compromise with truth. Proove your case and stop BS-itting.
Quote:Have you even finished any notable level of school? I have a sneaky feeling you're a construction worker obsessed with Albanian-related history.
I am into computer engineering; history is a hobby of mine. You do not have to be a graduated historian to disprove someone's BS; you just need material. I gave you them.
Quote:Because he could have it... and because there was a desire to revert to controlling some of the same medieval Slavic centres at that time... much like Serbia with Kosovo I suppose..
More like Cetinje being more of a village than a city. If anything, interests played role in both Kosova and Shkodra; nationalistic myths were coverup. If anything, Serbs would not have sung about Prizren in Onamo 'namo, but of Shkodra, if the city was so 'Slav' through history.
Edited by: Stankoisaserb at: 2/1/07 2:29 am
Re: re
I left my computer on, my dad must have walked by and read what I posting because he admonished with 'svadjas se sa Siptarima na netu, pa jesi normalan'... I didn't think it was a big deal, but I can now comprehend how bad and embarrassing it must look (like arguing with a Gypsy on the street)... zbogom!
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 8979
(1/30/07 11:58 pm)
Re: reDo not Insult!Edited by: Stankoisaserb at: 2/1/07 2:29 am
Dijedon Senior Moderator
Posts: 8980
(1/31/07 1:43 pm)
Re: reNo Insults!Edited by: Stankoisaserb at: 2/1/07 2:30 am
Quote:I left my computer on, my dad must have walked by and read what I posting because he admonished with 'svadjas se sa Siptarima na netu, pa jesi normalan'... I didn't think it was a big deal, but I can now comprehend how bad and embarrassing it must look (like arguing with a Gypsy on the street)... zbogom!
Mapko,
Yet again further proof that age brings real wisdom (this is why I tell you, you should listen to me ).
As for Dijedouchedhissiter you must really understand, other than having a perpetual erection for Noel Malcolm, his only weapon in life is the delete button. You can keep banging your head against the wall, but do you really think you'll ever change this baboon. I mean, I understand that you can teach a monkey to dance, but it is still (afterall) a monkey, right?
I suppose in the future we should be learning our legal doctrines from Captain parasite as well.
------------------------------------------------------
There is but one Church, it is the Orthodox Church. The rest of you are either schismatic or heretic and doomed to hell. I know, Jesus told me so.
Re: re
Mapko certainly doesn't need any help from me as he has proven that to you, time and again.
However, I like they young chap and recognize a promising young legal mind when I see one. One day I might hire him as an associate in my firm.
This way the three of us can work together. I'll own the firm, he'll be a senior associate (to be named partner at a later date) and you will clean the toilet.
------------------------------------------------------
There is but one Church, it is the Orthodox Church. The rest of you are either schismatic or heretic and doomed to hell. I know, Jesus told me so.
Re: re
Dijedon, your problem is you're doubting generally accepted history, that the Balsici were Serbian, that Skadar a Slavic city... you want me to prove generally accepted history, why the hell should I waste my time doing so?
My problem is I am arguing with Siptari, something I've promised myself I wouldn't do anymore... so, as I said once already, zbogom!
I would definitely have to agree with you on that one....very similar
at: 1/30/07 3:13 am
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