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Facilitypro
Moderator
(5/15/01 6:01 am)
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More bad reviewers
I was checking out the review styles of some of the more prolific reviewers on Gamefaqs, and I came across a reviwer by the name of DaLadiesMan. For a guy who has almost 400 reviews, he might be one of the worst reviewers I have ever seen. Some examples of his work:

FF6. The thing I like most about this game is not the fact that the game has the best story line ever featured in a role playing game, nor the fact that this is one of the best looking games to ever be released for the Super Nintendo as a video game console. No, the simple fact that this game is so much fun to play is the reason why I consider this to be one of the best games on the Super Nintendo, as well as one of the greatest role playing games ever made.

OK, I won't even TRY to sort out the logic of those two sentences. And I think he needs to throw in the word "game" a few more times.

Metroid 2. Seriously, the main point of all the Metroid games has been the fact that they have all been fairly non linear. The non linear aspect of the game play remains an all time favorite of mine, because I love the non linear game play that the series has always seem to provided. Sadly enough, that type of non linear game play is not to be found in this game, at all. This is probably the worst attempt of making a non linear game, ever in fact.

OK, so he clearly (yet verbosely) says that the game seemed a little too linear. Fair enough. But later...

The whole non linear feeling of the game is not what a Metroid game is supposed to feel like.

Uh, OK.

Ultima: Exodus. This is probably the most challenging role playing game I have ever played, and it is definitely one of the most challenging role playing games I have ever played, that's for sure. I really had a tough time playing this game, mainly because I was overwhelmed by the somewhat complex battle system and very complex menu system. It was rather complicated and made the game a lot more challenging than it already is.

Maybe his name should be DaRedundantMan.

Super Mario 64. The graphics in this game are pretty good. The 3D backgrounds in the game are pretty good, and Mario himself looks pretty good. My biggest complaint is the camera system. Let me explain the graphics in even more detail.

The first thing I noticed here is that he says "pretty good" a lot. But then he goes and mentions the camera system in the middle of the graphics discussion? Then he does it again later.

That's enough for now. I could go on for hours about this guy. Literally. Just check out his reviews. Now I don't claim to be a great reviewer or anything, but this guy is ridiculous.



Edited by: Facilitypro at: 5/15/01 3:38:36 pm
Crawl
Registered User
(5/15/01 8:19 pm)
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I LOVE FO!
I must have read a few of his reviews before because he has so many on gamefaqs. but I guess I hadn't picked up on what his were like (so far, not many gamefaqs reviewers are standing out in the crowd, I guess you could say).

Most of the points you made were pretty good. (in fact, I think all of them have come up before) However, I can kind of see mentioning camera work along with graphics. The visual component of a game isn't just what things look like, but how they're presented... which IMO includes the camera. Although I could also see camera being judged along with control.

Facilitypro
Moderator
(5/15/01 10:24 pm)
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Re: More bad reviewers
Looking back, I may have been a bit harsh. Maybe I should give him some freindly, constructive criticism. I think I'll let him be, though. I was just sort of flabbergasted at some of the things he said. I found a thread at Gamefaqs about "the worst reviewer on the site," and a couple of people mentioned him. But there's quite a few people who voted somebody the worst reviewer if they didn't like their scores. Now that's NOT how to ciritique a reviewer. I had no problem with his scoring. Just his presentation.

Crawl
Registered User
(5/15/01 10:28 pm)
Reply

I LOVE FO!
I'll go to his contributor page and skim over his reviews and see what I think, and what else I have to say.

Crawl
Registered User
(5/15/01 11:17 pm)
Reply

I LOVE FO!
Unfortunately, those reviews are just too boring for me to read now. Maybe I'm just not in the mood for them, or maybe they really are boring. I think it's very difficult to make reviews that are broken down into Graphics/Sound/PlayControl/etc sections interesting. When all games are reviewed that way, all games start to sound alike after awhile...

One thing that I noticed is that some people have trouble describing music at all. They rarely will even say things like whether it's techno, or rock, or orchestral, or whatever, and I'll be surprised if I ever see words like "syncopation" crop up.

I just read his most recent review (as far as I know) for PSX Sim City 2000. I notice that often before I read reviews I have some particular question I want answered. In this case, I wondered what was so "2000" about it, that is, what made Sim City 2000 different from plain old sim city. Unfortunately, that review didn't answer it. I suppose that whether a review might answer my questions may be somewhat random. I can imagine that there are a few people who might not get what they'd want from my Contra review, but I know the theme of the review is one that I hear often, so I thought it needed addressing, and besides I mentioned many game features in that context. I didn't go into detail with graphics and sound, but I didn't think they were nearly as important for Contra as the game play, so I put the emphasis on gameplay (I don't think graphics and sound need to be covered in every review any more than cover art needs to be rated in every review). I ~guess~ one question a person might have about PSX Sim City 2000 is how it compares to the PC version, which he thoroughly answered, but one would think my question would be of interest, too - though perhaps he never played the other Sim City games and can't comment (BTW, if I had ever played Contra in the arcade, I might have gone more into the game's graphics to describe how they're different from the arcade version's. But I haven't, so I didn't) - and perhaps Sim City 2000 is so similar to SIm City that a simple description makes them sound like the exact same game.

Edited by: Crawl at: 5/15/01 11:39:09 pm
Aussie2B 
Registered User
(5/19/01 1:17 am)
Reply

Re: More bad reviewers
I agree, DaLadiesMan is one of the worst prolific reviewers on GameFAQs. Actually, I wrote my Star Ocean review because I didn't think either of the two reviews on GameFAQs were any good, one of which was written by him. It's a fairly rare and expensive game, and it can't be tested out with emulators because they don't support that game yet. Therefore it deserves a review that describes the game well enough that fans of the second Star Ocean game can decide if it's a good purchase. My review could use some updating. It looks pretty poor compared to my two most recent reviews, but it's definitely better than the other two on GameFAQs, IMO.

I got tired of writing reviews with numerous little categories and scores. Now my format is basically: intro, story, gameplay, graphics, audio, conclusion, and I alter it as necessary. I don't label them as that, though. I throw in things like play control, challenge, replay value, rent or buy, etc. wherever I deem fit.

I still have trouble describing sound. That's something I need to work on.


"I want to turn into a little bird and fly away, so leave me alone!"

Facilitypro
Moderator
(5/19/01 8:47 pm)
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Re: More bad reviewers
Wow, someone other than me, Crawl or 'Tamer posted here. Aussie (I have this urge to call Aussie2b "Ossy Tooby."), I've read your reviews, and I like them. They're long for my tastes, but they're well written, and I can tell you actually played the game.

I don't really have a format when I write a review, other than trying to cover all the bases. I guess I try to convey some info about the game, then gradually shift to expressing my opinions on the game.

Crawl
Registered User
(5/19/01 9:10 pm)
Reply

I LOVE FO!
When I first tried to write reviews a couple of years ago (like my abortive attempts with Castlevania 2 and Super Mario World reviews - and I really should be able to review those games; I've beaten them enough) I tried to have graphics/sound/etc. categories. And I tried to cover everything in those categories. But, it's not really possible, so I might have had an introduction or conclusion, too, but then thing became repetitive, since I might need to mention something about graphics or gameplay or whatever in an introduction (I think many people would mention the DKC games' graphics in an introduction) and would need to mention it again in the section for that category. Then, I was wondering about scoring those things. At first I was going to score them from 1 to 10, but I knew the scores should average to about 5, and they were averaging to a score of about 7.5 instead, which was too high. And I didn't want to give games really, really low scores for graphic just to bring the average down (some games, i felt, HAD to have perfect scores for graphics, like Castlevania 4, Yoshi's Island, etc., so I couldn't lower THOSE games' scores). So, I decided against a 1 to 10 scale and decided I would judge merely on quality, not with respect to an average, and if most games had very good graphics, so be it. So I would use a 4 star scale. Then Facility Pro pointed out that most reviewers' component scores are highly correlated. I was wondering if I should give component scores to Bionic Commando Elite Forces. I gave the game itself 3 stars. I thought the graphics were good, but not really amazing, so that wouldbe 3 stars. I thought the music was good, but had some problems, like not enough variety, so that would be 3 stars... then I realized I wouldgive the game straight 3 star, and i thought, what's the point? If a game has graphics much betteror worse than the rest of the game, I'll make note of it in the body of the review. But for the most part there's no point in rating those things separately, IMO. As for covering stuff in a review, I think there's usually some core to a game, some hook that sets it apart from other games, for example, and I think it's most important to get to that. Although i describe graphics in some reviews, i don't think it's really necessary to in all cases. If I'd want to know if a game is worth my money, the graphics are the fathest thing from my mind. There're really not important. And I wouldn't want to devote too much space to graphics in all reviews because it would give that part of the game disproportionate amount of attention. Again, it varies for different games. Games are different, so they should not all be reviewed in the same way.

Facilitypro
Moderator
(5/20/01 5:06 am)
Reply

Re: I LOVE FO!
I find it kind of funny (not funny "ha ha" but funny as in peculiar) that many people at Gamefaqs seem to spend weeks writing a review. I mean, does a review really require that much effort? I suppose if you take them really seriously, I could fathom it. I guess. I think both of the reviews I've submitted took about an hour in total (time spent making the post here, then time spent turning it into a review).

I think it's quite possible to overanalyze a game. In an effort to make the review complete, people often include too much detail, and thus become repetitive, reveal spoilers, etc. (BTW, that reminds me. Crawl, you might want to hold off reading any "professional" reviews on MDK 2 until after you finish it. There are many that go a bit too far in detail and manage to spoil some parts. One I read last night even managed to give away the most of the final boss fight, if you can believe that.)

Another thing I've been thinking about is the bell curve/percentile thing. Of the games I own, I won them for a reason, and that was because I knew or suspected that I would enjoy them. So if I want my reviews to maintain an average of 5, I have to:
A) Review some of the game I own that I don't like just to balance out the score.
B) Give some games lower scores than they deserve.

Option A sounds like the better choice (actually, it's the only viable choice), but I really don't own that many games I don't like.

So I suppose the best thing to do would be to rationalize a bit on why my reviews will have an average higher than 5. What I'll say is this: If I were to play every single game available, then review every single one, the average would be 5 with a standard deviation of about 1.67. That way, a 10 would be 3 sd above the mean, a lofty, yet not totally exclusive, claim for any game. If there are 5000 games in existance, then about 50 of them can be called a 10. Of couuse, that would mean 50 1s, too.
Maybe it'd be better to say a mean of 6 with a standard deviation of 1.5, to allow for a negative skew (i.e., more than half of the games score higher than 5). That is because I would really only give a game a 1 if it were literally unplayable. That means, on top of being a bad game, the game has one or more of the folowing problems: It is buggy and freezes/glitches, has a non-functioning password system, has totally unresponsive controls, causes nausea from a shaky camera, or any other horrible trait.

And also, like Crawl mentioned before, companies try to make good games. Granted, some clunkers get out, but to get a bell-shaped curve, a little more chance has to be involved. It's not like rolling 2 dice and getting an average of 7. Companies have control of the games they release; that (sort of) brings me to rating games relative to other games.

Is it really right to rate games relative to other games? Hypothetical situation: You are given every single NES game ever made, and you love every single one (bear with me here). Are you going to give the games at the bottom of your "preference" list a 1 just because they are at the bottom, even though you still liked them? Let's look at a (much) smaller scale. If I were going to rate the Final Fantasies I've played, I'd place 1 at the top and 4 at the bottom. But I still enjoyed 4, so I'm not giving it a low score.

In the end, I suppose the best thing to do would be to make a scale (like the Rolling Stone 5 Star scale) and stick to it. Even a 5 point scale can be informative (unless you're a bozo). I mean, Christ, Siskel and Ebert used a 2 point scale, and look where it got them.

Crawl
Registered User
(5/20/01 6:29 pm)
Reply

Re: I LOVE FO!
I can understand some people taking a week to write a review. Not the typical
reviews that come out of gamefaqs, though! I CAN take a long time to write a
review. Despite 16 (or more?) years of schooling, all of the most recent of
those years involving lots of essay writing, I still can get writer's block, or
be affected by other issues. For instance, I'd like to have my words flow
smoothly, and I'd like to use precise, meaningful phrases. Videogame reviewing
is in its infancy, and the standards have not yet been adequately defined. I
often think it's worthwhile for me to make a general point about games in a game
review. Further, if I would give a game an exceptional score I would think the
review would be obliged to back it up. I couldn't merely make some weak
argument like, "This is one of the funnest games I've ever played!" which could
be said about any game, I would have to dig into what about the game makes it
uniquely special, and then I would try to find the words to express that as eloquently as possible. And sometimes I don't like what I've written, so I have to totally start all over.

My Lunar review draft, as it stands now, has about 3 introductions. If there's one thing I got from writing lots of essays in highschool and college, it's a knack for writing introductions. I remember in my freshman year of highschool I couldn't write conclusions, because it seemed like I always said everything in the body and intro, so there was no point for a conclusion. I later found that sometimes after I wrote 2 intros, I could move one to the end for a conclusion. Anyway, the point is, I really need to move those paragraphs around and cut them up to get anything like a coherent review.

In fact, this post will be taking me too long to write. I wrote it at one computer lab, but it was taking too long and the lab closed, so I emailed it to myself here (hence the crazy tabs). I was going to go over it and edit it a bit where I got off track, but I see that will take too long, so I'll just have to accept that this will be purely rambling, occasionally touching on what was said before.

The flip side to taking a long time to write reviews is that all the reviews I submitted to gamefaqs were written
pretty much off the top of my head, in maybe an hour or less each. Then I
reread them, realized I forgot a few important sentences, and revised them. On
the other hand, when I give a game 3 stars, I only need to make the case that
it's good... not that it's one of the best games ever... and I think I did
that. Maybe it's better when I just write, instead of obsessing?


I've been thinking about the percentile/bell curve thing, too. Some people
insist that Contra would be in the top 10% of NES games and would thus deserve a
score of ten. If you used the bell curve method, that would be... I have no
idea, I don't memorize the area under a gaussian curve... maybe around an 8.
Actually, I was debating in my head whether Contra deserved 3 1/2 stars instead
of 3, but

1) I don't want to lose sleep over half-stars. Some games will be high 3 stars,
some will be low 3 1/2 stars; it's just the way things go. (of course, I won't be adding an extra resolution to my scale because of this... that would just make things worse)

2) I gave Bionic Commando 3 stars. Now, I know a lot of people don't like BC,
but I think that's mainly because they don't like the style of gameplay to begin
with, and there's nothing it could do to be better. I like Contra's style of
game play, I just think other games (Contra 3, for instance) did it with much
better results. Anyway, looked at objectively, I can see giving Contra and BC
similar scores. Contra was very original and influential, inspiring games like
Metal Slug and Gunstar heroes (as I've said)... and possibly indirectly
inspiring other walk and shoot games like Metal Storm. BC:EF STILL is a very
unique game. There really isn't anything else like it in my game collection.
Even NES BC is quite different. The only game I've heard of that sounds similar
is Umihara for Playstation, and most people have never heard of that, let alone
played it. So, both games score about the same on the originality scale. Both
games also score about the same on the depth scale. BC:EF seems like at first it's a little longer or harder, but one hit
kills in Contra can keep you on your toes for repeated plays after you know the
game. So, I had no qualms giving them the same score.

But back to the idea of percentile of games. I think some people who have
written numerous reviews that say, "My reviews might average to 7.9, but if I
played every game ever then it would be 5, and if you played every game ever you
would agree Contra is in the top 10%!" are likely deluding themselves. THEY
might not play every game, but a magazine like EGM does, and by looking through
it I doubt very highly that their average score is close to 5 (or even 6). I
was going to look up the scores for a recent issue online, but I see they took
that part down (I guess they want people to pay to read that magazine's reviews. Hmph.) Maybe I should look up
videogames.com's scores and do a quick study. Anyway, I'm predicting that EGM's
average is between 7 and 8... gamefan's probably would have been between 8 and
9!. Anyway, it's true that none of us have played every game ever made. That
being the case, we can't assume there's a sea of Hydlide's or NES Ikari Warriors
out there to drag our monumentally high averages down. In fact, there probably isn't. I'll bet many games we haven't played are underrated. I mentioned Umihara... I hear that's a very good game, even though it's one most people wouldn't consider. If anyone has very mainstream
opinions ("Final Fantasy 7 and Metal Gear Solid are some of the best games for
Playstation!") their opinions are likely the same as mainstream magazines like
EGM.. and they would therefore rate games too highly, just like the magazines.


Actually, I decided to do a little research,and average the the most recent
videogames.com reviews from their page. There were 20 altogether. The average
was 6.63, and the standard deviation was 1.75, which actually isn't too bad. I
guess the question is whether that's representative. Maybe, maybe not. KISS
Pinball was reviewed, and that game got a 1.3, sinking the average. But
videogames.com doesn't give out many scores that low a year. I know; I've been
following them. The last one that I can recall that got a 1.3 before was
SuperMan 64, and I think at the time that was their lowest score ever. So maybe
they just got lucky having that low rated game in their last 20 reviews to help
bring the average down. Also, it's been a relatively slow time for games
recently.

I did the same thing with dreamcast.ign.com (I figure the dreamcast is in the
middle of its life now, which should lead to a more representative sample than
for the PSX or N64, which are at the ends of their lives). Their results back
me up better. Of 40 games, their average was 7.3875, with a standard deviation
of 2.0. Their scores went all the way down to a 1.0, and up to a 9.6. So,
they're giving away tons of scores in the 6-10 range, and a few games scores of
less than 4. I think ign is closer than videogames.com to what gamefaqs
reviewers give, anyway.

Okay, don't get the wrong idea... I understand perfectly what Facility Pro is
saying. I personally think having an average of 6 instead of 5 is probably a
good idea, too, and I also understand that we all try to get good games, and
avoid bad ones. But when our scores' averages deviate strongly from 5 or 6, we
really need to be ask ourselves, and be honest when we answer, if we see strong
evidence we would be giving much lower scores to a large number of other games,
not just hypothesing that most games we haven't played are bad. For instance, I
know Facility Pro said he wasn't all that fond of Zelda 64. or ready to rumble
boxing, soul reaver, or Code Veronica. I think that's evidence that he would give lower scores to other games IGN gave high
scores to, so his average would be lower than IGNs if he reviewed
every game.


Regarding liking all NES games the same... No, it wouldn't be fair to give a
game a 1 because you like it just slightly less than a game you'd give a 5 or
10. The fair thing to do would probably be to give almost every game a 5, and a
few games 4s or 6s. If the number of 4 and 6 scores would be identical, then
the average would be 5... but if 4's and 6's each occured with frequency f, and 5's
with frequency g, then the standard deviation would be

2f/(2f + g)

which is always less than 1. So, you couldn't have a standard deviation of 1.5
with that setup. But then, you shouldn't - if you liked all games about the
same, you're not describing a gaussian curve, you're describing a delta
function. I think in that situation, rather than giving those games 4s, 5s and
6s like they should, a typical gamefaqs reviewer would give them 8s, 9s, and
10s. The only justification for that would be if you, for example, played every
Genesis game and hated all of them. (or, in other words, played a lot of OTHER games you hated so you could push those NES games' scores up while still keeping an average of 5) Think about this. If I wanted to know
what works of classical literature are worth reading, and someone gave me a list of 1000 books because they liked most classical literature the same and couldn't narrow it down, I'd say, "To hell with it." If someone gave me a list of 5 books, and maybe a longer list of books if I liked the first 5, I would be more likely to follow their
recommendations.

Going back to Contra being in the top 10%, I think there are about 700 NES games, and over a thousand Famicom games. So, to be in the top 10%, it would only have to be in the top 70 or so games, which isn't that great a feat, or so it seems. I had to think for awhile to think of 70 NES games, period. To say it's NOT in the top 10%, I would have to think of 70 I would like MORE... which I probably can't do. Then again, I probably can't think of 140 I like LESS, which means I can't prove it's not in the bottom 20%, either. I could look at a representative list of NES games and see if it's in the top 10%... well, easier said than done. I do know this, though. Though there may be some bad games out there, there are also a lot of underrated games (I know a few people who LOVE Little Ninja Bros., for example, which most people don't know much about. Magic of Scheherazade is another game those who played it insist is underrated. People always say Chrono Trigger invented the idea of combination attacks in RPGs, but supposedly MoS did it years earlier) The best I can do is assume my game playing experience is somewhat representative. I guess to get a 10 with a bell curve scoring, a would have to be in the top 7 if there are 700 NES games total. I can easily think of 7 NES games I like more than Contra. Well, maybe I should say I can think of 7 NES games I think are BETTER than Contra. I pride myself on being more objective than most fan reviewers, and there are some games that are my very favorites and I still would only give them 3 stars. Anyway, all this talk of numbers is a good reason why I don't like the 1~10 scoring system. It's much easier for me to think of things this way. R-Types is one of the greatest achievements of the genius of man (yes, I'm serious). Therefore, it's a standard by which other things may be judged, therefore, it's the standard I judge games by. It's much easier to think if a game is bad, mediocre, good, excellent, or a masterpiece than to try to imagine what games I haven't played are like.


In any case, what if there IS a sea of NES total recalls or back to the futures out there to drag down averages? (one reason I doubt it is because the number of games I hear are universally despised is small. One might think word would get out). So, my scores would make a bell curve for most of the range, but with a huge spike at around 0-1 stars. I wouldn't really sweat it. I'm sure there are lots of amature bands out there that can't play worth crap, but I don't think Rolling Stone would raise their ratings to acknowledge that there's incompetent music out there. I think ratings are usually designed to appropriately rate things that are at least of close to professional quality. I don't like the idea of giving a game a high score because there's worse out there... and I don't care how it compares to some "average" (even if people did know what average was, which most don't).... what I would want to know is, how does it compare to the best? Who cares if my scale doesn't give much resolution to horrible games? Those games are beneath notice anyway (if they exist. Many of the Famicom games that didn't make it here might be horrible, but some are probably good [eg., Gradius 2]... probably the largest batch of "bad" games would be games that just aren't suited to our tastes, like Japanese horse racing simulators, would could probably only be rated as N/A. Aside from games like that, I'll bet the selection of games that didn't make it here is of a similar quality as those that did... so we can't assume that there will be a huge group of games there to help bring our average down).


I agree, the only viable option would be to rate some bad games we played to bring our averages down. Or just say, "to hell with it, I know IF I rated those games, my average would be lower." But certainly giving games scores lower than what they deserve is not viable.

Yes, if I'd give a game 0 stars, it would have to be unplayable, or otherwise horrible. I thought Lunar was very boring, and therefore quite bad, but it was in some ways competent (graphics and sound, at least) and it was not unplayable, which is why I'd give it 1 1/2 stars, instead of 0.

BTW, I once did a search on Ebert's site for movies that had someone with the name "Smith" work on them in some major capacity. I would guess that would turn up a representative list of movies. 100 came up, which is the most that site's search feature will return. I averaged the score... I forgot what it was, but I think it was close to 3 stars. No matter what it was, I think Ebert could say, "So what?" He's not claiming anything is average, but just rating on pure quality. If the average was 1.5 stars, he could say a lot of crappy movies were made, if the average was 3.8 stars, he could say a lot of incredible movies were made. With an average of 3, though, I think it reflects that most movies are at least good. I think the same goes for videogames.

As for Siskel and Ebert's 2 point scale... i saw part of a show with the new guy (whoever it is) and they had a "thumbs sideways" score. That would be useful. For me, anything of 1.5 stars or less would be thumbs down. 3 stars or up, thumbs up. 2 or 2 1/2 stars would be a reluctant thumbs up unless I had a thumbs sideways score. (maybe some 2 stars would be thumbs down). And I read some lines in movie ads that said, "Two Thumbs up! WAY up!" Is "way up" another point on the scale?

Anyway, I agree: people should pick a system and stick to it. But, like I said before, you have to make sure your scale does what it says it does. I don't like 1~10 scales, and I think they should be gotten rid of (maybe a few people can use them properly, but not many). No one knows what average is, people rate games too highly... no one knows what an intermediate score is... (I think Facility Pro said he would pay $40 for a game that would get a 7... I know many other people think 7 is borderline bad) What's the point? I think most people SHOULD just use a thumbs up/down scale, with a possible thumbs sideways score. If you like most games the same, and hate the rest, that's all you really need. It'd be much easier to apply at a place like gamefaqs, too.

Since we've been talking about Ebert so much, here's another quote from him. I'm often told that all that matters in a game is if it's fun, and I shouldn't consider depth or anything else like that. Someone wrote in defending The Mummy Returns, saying it was brainless but fun to watch - a "popcorn" movie. Ebert replied:
Quote:

There are good popcorn movies (''The Mummy'') and bad ones (''The Mummy
Returns''). Critics should not give movies a pass via the popcorn loophole, but be as
rigorous with popcorn movies as any other kind. ''The Mummy Returns'' cheats on
story and character and condescends to its audience with mindless special effects
that are not engendered by anything we can care about.


Something to think about. BTW, he didn't give a really bad score to the mummy returns - 2 stars, which is more mediocre than bad.

I haven't really been reading any MDK2 reviews, so I won't have to worry about spoilers.

I think there's a good chance game quality should be a close-to-bell shaped curve, even though designers try to make good games. Yes, they might have some control over their games, but think of this. People's height should form a bell curve. They have no control over their height. People have control over how high they can jump. But taller people should, presumably, be able to jump higher than shorter people. So the previous random factor should influence the other less random factor. Designers have varying talents in making games; therefore, that will be superimposed on the final product's quality (sometimes it seems designers can rise above their talents in various ways. Some people don't think Takumi is as talented as other shooter makers. But I think the pure amount of work they put into making Mars Matrix a good value as a home port made it rise above the quality of their other games). Also, there are other random factors, such as budgets that run out.. things like that. Finally... (what I should be less than eager to point out) game designers try to do different things. Whether that matches with what a fan wants from the game may be random. We've all seen negative reviews, I'm sure, where the reviewer doesn't really make the case that the game is bad so much as it's not the exact same as some other game the reviewer likes.

I noticed I mentioned "most gamefaqs reviews" many times in this thread. I'm not very happy about that. You and I have submitted at least 1 review there each, plus other friends I have have submitted reviews there... and, most importantly, it's never good to group a bunch of people together in a prejudiced way. There probably are a few good gamefaqs reviewers. But on the whole, there definitely seems to be a certain viewpoint embodied by the typical gamefaqs reviewer, and I dont' know of a better way of describing it.

Edited by: Crawl at: 5/20/01 8:42:22 pm
Facilitypro
Moderator
(5/21/01 4:22 am)
Reply

Re: I LOVE FO!
Well, that certainly is a lot to reply to. Instead of replying to each part (which would probably cause both of us to start making 5,000 word replys), I'll just try to address a few things.

I bought the last 2 issues of EGM, and their scores (at least in the issues I have) are much lower than gamefaqs scores. The mean still looks to be over 5, but I think the standard deviation might be a little higher, as there is more variation in the numbers.

BUT I'M SICK OF NUMBERS! The only time I assign numbers to a game is when I am forced, such as when I write a review for gamefaqs. Like I said before, I don't like trying to quantify intangible things. Subjectively intangible things, anyway. I wonder what would happen if Gamefaqs got rid of the mandatory number system. Hell, let's go one step further. Let's say they made it mandatory that there could be NO scoring of games! My, how the masses would be lost. I bet people would be really pissed. I mean, it's not like you need the score for a quick reference. There IS a heading to read.

I think people rely too much on numbers. It's funny how, out of the thousands of words that may be in a review, the one most people seem to dwell on the isn't even a word. I mean, regarding your Contra review, how many people probably said it was a bad review or that you were an idiot before they even read it?

Uhh..let's see. I think if I were to play every NES game, most of them would make me go "Eh, it's OK." If it's on the good side of "OK," it gets a 6. Bad side of "OK," gets a 4. Plain and simple. In a 5 star scale, they'd all get a score of 3.

As for writing reviews of bad games just to lower my average, I probably wouldn't do it just for that reason. When deciding to write a review, I try to write reviews for: games that need more reviews, games that my opinions on differ from the masses, or games who's reviews I feel have something missing. (It was kind of odd that, although there were only 2 reviews for MDK 2, both of them pretty much said what I wanted to say.)

Maybe I'll add more tomorrow. I still have posts to make and it's getting late. I'm not even gonna preview them.

Edited by: Facilitypro at: 5/21/01 2:39:42 pm
Crawl
Registered User
(5/21/01 2:23 pm)
Reply

I LOVE FO!
Hmmm... I wonder if it's too much to expect that NES games "blow me away" as opposed to just making me think, "eh, it's okay." I don't think so... many games have the "it's alright" effect on me, but there are still games that can stand out.

I just reread my Contra review (revised version). Aside from maybe one or two residual typos, I think that review nailed that game. I give my review 5 stars =)

I guess there's the question of why I care about scoring games. I agree with most of what you said, and can think of lots of benifits to not scoring games. Is it just because I'm snotty and want to give games like R-Types 5 stars? Probably.

It is good to review games that you have different perspectives on, etc. For some reason, even though other people may have said similar things about MDK2, you made it sound more exciting.

I sort of have some distant goal of someday reviewing every game I've beaten, though.

Edited by: Crawl at: 5/21/01 2:46:38 pm
Facilitypro
Moderator
(5/22/01 2:22 am)
Reply

Re: I LOVE FO!
That's a very refreshing goal, considering that many reviewers have a distant goal of beating every game they've reviewed.

On other news, an intersting thread has popped up at the Gamefaqs reviewer board. Someone asked, out of every game that exists for every system, how many deserve 10s? A few people said zero, but I couldn't tell if they were being sarcastic or not. Surprisingly, most people said 30 or 40. So basically, that boils down to only one game per system being a 10. "Hmmm...only 30 games deserve a 10. The rest deserve 7s, 8s, and 9s!! Oh yeah, and a few 1s for the games everyone else hates, too."

Add that to the list of reasons why I think most Gamefaqs reviewers are lousy reviewers (well, aside from that Crawl guy).

Maybe you could do this: If a game isn't worthy of 5 stars, it isn't worthy of a score at all. And the review could just say this: "It isn't as good as R-Types."

Crawl
Registered User
(5/22/01 4:18 pm)
Reply

I LOVE FO!
"Maybe you could do this: If a game isn't worthy of 5 stars, it isn't worthy of a score at all. And the review could just say this: 'It isn't as good as R-Types.'"

I don't know what that seems so revolutionary (particularly since I argued the mertits of not scoring games before) but it does... (possibly because it may seem like my first few reviews were made to have a score compliment them, or maybe because I already had scores figured out) but the more i get used to the idea, the more I'm liking it.


James FP 
Registered User
(6/2/01 3:46 pm)
Reply

.....
Sorry to butt in, and I really hope that I am not intruding here. However, I just wanted to mention a few things. I wouldn't have known that this was going on here, if FO hadn't told me, so that's how I found this, anyway, here's what I have to say:

I used to like GameFAQs a lot, to the point where I'd call myself a "GameFAQs junkie". I never submitted anything, but I read every new review, every day....when suddenly, I realized, I was wasting my time! (Time that could've been better spent talking with friends who actually have respectable opinions on games, even if I disagree with them, but that's beside the point.) It's like an assembly-line. Almost every day, you see games getting nothing but 9s and 10s, anymore. One thing that bothers me is the general consensus that GameFAQs is "the best place" to go for game reviews. Whatever happened to the good old days when if you asked who a good reviewer is, people would answer with links to different fan sites? Now, it's always, "Go to GameFAQs!" Sorry, but I don't understand what makes them so much greater. Yes, I understand the place does have some exceptionable reviewers, but guess what? They're just a worker on the assembly line...a face in the crowd. It's so much easier, if you want attention, to whip up a 10-minute review and submit it to some bigwig site, than it is to actually go and do the HTML, yourself.

I've heard plenty of respectable gamers say that they think Bionic Commando is a piece of crap. I don't think they would mind if I named them, but DH, Liontamer, DeathSpork, and Light Warrior 5 are among them. But look at the Review Section of GameFAQS for BC:

www.gamefaqs.com/console/.../7556.html

Not ONE average or below-average score, whatsoever! I've never played BC, so maybe I would like it. I don't know. But I do know that when this many people in a smaller community tell me they hate that game, and there's not one low score of it at a larger place, like GameFAQs, there's something wrong. And if you ever go to their message boards and try to point something like this out to them, they'll reply with stuff like, "You're such an idiot! Those people you mentioned are idiots! Blah, blah!" (Of course, if you decide to insult them back, they whine and complain endlessly about it, and act like you're causing them so much trouble, but that's also beside the point.)

Here's another example:

www.gamefaqs.com/console/.../7748.html

Gauntlet - I think this game is awful. Awful, awful, awful! It is practically unplayable, it's so bad, and it's also unfinishable! (Unless there's some way to cheat with a Game Genie.) I'm not saying it's unfinishable because it's hard. I'm saying that, because you need to get a combination code in order to access the last levels of the game. However, those codes are IMPOSSIBLY well-hidden in certain rooms, and you are given an OBSCENELY small amount of time to find them! I have only once, in all the times I've played this game, found one of the letters to the combination. And not to mention, that if you take the wrong path, you'll end up skipping past those clue rooms, anyway! Also, the game often gives you passwords that DO NOT WORK!! Sure, one person gave the game a rather low score of 4, but they actually complained about that on their message board! Apparently, these people have no clue what an opinion is. And look how one guy even describes it as, "A classic that was the best game for its time..." Now think about it...do you know of anyone who considered Gauntlet the best game of 1988 or 89?

Yet strangely, enough, most of them seem to rate

href=www.gamefaqs.com/console/.../7648.html

Deadly Towers very low. But from everything I've heard about that game, AT LEAST it sounds finishable, if you take the time to level up your character and map out the game. Perhaps, this has something to do with Seanbaby's placing it at the top of his Worst Games List, but if I want Seanbaby's opinion, I will go to his page for it! Sheesh!

Anyway, I'm gonna be redoing my webpage, and the first thing I plan to have up is a rant about this subject. DH is going even farther with it than I am...so far, that she's decided to create her own site. We were originally going to collaborate, but she feels that her offensive language may end up getting my site deleted or something. Well, it's up to her what she does.

Facilitypro 
Moderator
(6/3/01 1:55 am)
Reply

Re: More bad reviewers
Crawl and I both agree that Gamefaqs reviews are too high. I don't really like the way many reviewers there treat reviews; like they're some sort of status symbols.

I'd rather get opinions from people I know, too. I've bought several games Crawl has spoken highly of. Of course, I do more research than that. (Look at 3 or 4 different review sites, check out screenshots, etc.) But I woudn't blame Crawl if I didn't like, say, Vagrant Story. People at Gamefaqs seem like thay'd say things like, "Facilitypro, you said [game] was good, and I spent 50 bucks and I hated it. It's your fault I wasted my money."
If mine was the only opinion they read before buying the game, they deserve to be disappointed.

Flying Omelette 
Registered User
(6/3/01 10:38 am)
Reply

I LOVE MY SMOOSH!
I really wish the people over at the Game Pond would write reviews more often , but with the exception of the occasional fanboy review, they don't post reviews too often. But part of the reason for this is, I've often heard people say things like, "I don't want to review a game...because if I give it a good review and people buy it and hate it, they'll blame me!" That would be funny if they weren't being serious. No one there is stupid enough to buy a game just because of one opinion! (Well, maybe there's some people, but if they did that, then they can't blame the reviewer!)

Anyway, I've decided to leave GameFAQs. I'm trying to find out if I can get my reviews removed, and if I can, then I'm going to close my account, so there's no temptation to go back. I also sometimes wish people at the Game Pond would be a little more open with their opinions, because if I had known many of them had a generally negative opinion of it, I probably wouldn't have felt as compelled to submit reviews there. Until recently, I only heard praise for the place, except from Crawlie Smoosh, but it's not unusual for us to strongly disagree on some things. Everybody was constantly talking about it, and making it out to be the greatest thing ever, but then suddenly, in a recent thread, someone said their boards sucked, and then a lot of other people started coming forward and saying they didn't like the site, either. Of course, maybe the reason they don't always come forward like that, is because whenever there's the slightest hint of anything controversial, someone always gets pissed, mouths off at the board, and leaves. (Strangely enough, it's usually someone who wasn't even involved in the conversation.)

As for the 10-point scale thing...I agree that most reviewers don't seem to use it correctly. To be fair, tt's not just GameFAQs, though. If you've ever been to The NES Triforce, and read their reviews, you'll notice that sometimes they say things like, "this is pure garbage", or "this game was not that good", but still score it well above average! I've seen reviewers say things like, "I know 7 is a bad score..." Wtf? 7 is NOT a bad score! I don't know if I really use the scale very well, myself, either, but when I think of it in terms of relativity, then I become a little more confident that I do. For example, I really didn't like Kabuki Quantum Fighter and I gave it a 4, but I think if the average GameFAQs reviewer had the same opinion of it that I did, they would probably give it a 7. There was a recent review for the PSX game, "Sheep", where the reviewer's tag line was something like, "The game I've waited for all my life, and it's only average!", yet he gave it a 7!! That's well-above average, people! One time I read a review of RoboTrek on some site, where the reviewer panned every single aspect of the game, and likened it to one of the worst games ever, yet gave it all scores in the 7s and 8s!!

Maybe I should get rid of the 10-point scale, maybe I shouldn't. I don't know...I look at the scores I've given games every now and then, and I do pretty much think almost everything was fair. I did get rid of 0 scores, because I really think I went overboard with giving out zeros to games I don't like. About the only games I've played that I can think of that would really, REALLY deserve zeros, IMO, are the NES versions of Xenophobe and Chiller, and Sword of Sodan for Genesis. These three games are such unplayable crap, that I have no idea why they don't show up on worst games lists more often.

Facilitypro 
Moderator
(6/4/01 4:42 am)
Reply

Re: More bad reviewers
I've noticed that Gamefaqs has implemented a 30-review limit for games. I think that's good. I mean, do we really need 40 reviews for a game on one site? (And usually, if a game has that many reviews, most of them are 10s, because it's a popular game.) The people at the review board didn't like the limit. Someone said something along the lines of "Well, there may be 30 reviews for a game, but that means 25 of them are crap." That's a little extreme, IMO.

Some sites go overboard in sheer number of reviews. At videogamereview.com, Shenmue has 248 reviews, and counting!

Flying Omelette 
Registered User
(6/4/01 6:50 am)
Reply

...
That's sort of why a lot of these sites are losing credit in the eyes of some gamers, including myself. There's just way too many people who rent a game (or download a ROM), play it a bit, then whip up a review in 10 minutes, then submit it without a second thought.

Have you ever been to reviewplanet.com? About the only reason anyone would go to that site is for a laugh! A long time ago, DeathSpork submitted a review for Castlevania 64 to them. He said it was taken down the next day, and he got an email from one of the site's staff members that said, "Don't ever do to that again", and nothing more. DS's thought was, "Don't ever do what again? Submit a decent review to your site?"

TWEETER911 
Registered User
(6/4/01 3:22 pm)
Reply

Re: ...
bwaa?????omg...

"Just once I wish we could land on a planet and I could say:'Behold,I am the ArchAngel Gabriel'"!-Bones

Aussie2B 
Registered User
(6/4/01 6:21 pm)
Reply

Re: .....
I still like GameFAQs. It's the ONLY place where I can talk to people who have played Star Ocean (and liked it), and it's the only place that has people as crazy about Star Ocean 2 as me (RPGamer once had a SO2 board with really devoted fans, but it was deleted). The review contributer board is okay when I'm in the mood to write reviews. I just ignore a few of the morons there. (There are morons at every large board, right?) The game specific boards are fun when I first begin playing or replaying a game, but they get a little boring after awhile.

I read at least a few new reviews just about everyday. I just ignore the scores. I'm only interested in the writing. I'm getting to the point where I know what reviews I want to read. Zigfried has written some excellent reviews. I really liked his Sexy Parodius review, which was just recently submitted. Bloomer writes very good reviews as well, and there was a Mars Matrix reviews I was very impressed with... Can't remember who wrote it. :/ Usually bad reviews are so short that I don't waste much time on them, anyway.

Then, of course, there are the FAQs. GameFAQs is not only reviews or only message boards. If I want a FAQ, I always turn to GameFAQs. And if I'm interested in writing one myself, I don't know of any better place to submit. The whole purpose of FAQs is to help people, so the more people who see it, the better.

I'm a little reluctant to post my recent reviews at the Game Pond... I think they're a little more risque than the average review. I'm afraid that I'll either offend someone or simply make a fool out of myself. I am, though, considering putting up my reviews on one of my sites. It's kind of unoriginal, having a site for nothing but reviews, but I'm going to replay FF7 sometime in the next few months, and I know I'm going to want to write a review. I obviously have no chance at all of getting it put up on GameFAQs because of that new rule. I need somewhere to put it. :/


"I want to turn into a little bird and fly away, so leave me alone!"

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