Head of the Citizens' Council Minister At-Large Tománnach Citizen Party Leader LPT
Posts: 815
(23/7/05 20:16)
DT2005-054 - Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
Mr. Speaker,
I move the following.
Garine.
Sensible Elections Amendment
1. PRESIDENTIAL TERM. Section 5.4 is repealed and replaced as follows:
Quote:"The President shall sit in office for a period of six months barring his resignation or removal from office by a vote of no confidence in the Dáil Tománn."
2. CITIZENS' COUNCIL DISBANDED, INITIATIVE RETAINED.
2.1 Section 8 is repealed.
2.2 Section 10.1.iii is repealed and replaced as follows:
Quote:"All citizens of the Republic have the right to run and vote in elections unless they are incarcerated or have been citizens for less than 28 days."
2.3 Sections 10.1.iv-v are repealed, remaining clauses renumbered accordingly.
2.4 Section 10.1.vi is created as follows:
Quote:"All citizens of the Republic may force the Dáil to take up legislation by a petition containing the text and signatures of one third of the population, rounded up to the nearest whole citizen."
3. DÁIL TERM, VACANCIES PROVISION RETAINED. Section 12.4 is repealed and replaced as follows:
Quote:"4. DÁIL ELECTIONS. Elections to the Dáil Tománn are held the second weekends in February, May, August, November, or when the President has dissolved it.
4.1 Vacancies must be filled by the parties of the members who last occupied those seats. If the seat was held by an independent, the President must appoint another independent to the vacancy.
4.2 Each party may nominate a party list with up to as many candidates as there are seats. Independents also may nomiante.
4.3 The number of seats is equal to the population of the Republic divided by three and rounded up to the nearest whole, odd number."
4. 28 DAY REDUNDANCY REMOVED. Section 12.6 is repealed.
5. REFERENDUM INITIATIVE RETAINED, ADD PRESIDENT. Section 1.4 is repealed and replaced as follows:
Quote:"1. Constitutional amendments are ratified by two-thirds of the population at referendum, rounded up to the nearest whole citizen. Referenda are held at the nearest general election.
2. The Dáil may call a referendum by majority vote. The President may call a referendum. The citizens may call a referendum with a petition containing the amendment text and the signatures of one-third of the population, rounded up to the nearest whole citizen."
6. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS. Section 12.3 is repealed and replaced as follows:
Quote:"Presidential elections are held the second weekends in November and May; or upon resignation, or a vote of no confidence in the Dáil Tománn."
**Bill edited to include the correct Dáil Tománn code number in the subject line**Edited by: tomann at: 23/7/05 22:53
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 1900
(23/7/05 21:08)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
As i have said elsewhere, both in the Garden and the LPT Offices, i'm with you on this one Alex. Your suggestions will be of great benefit to our Republic i feel!
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 1908
(23/7/05 22:59)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
Can i be so bold as to motion this Act (or rather ammendments package) for a vote. If so do i hear a second?
Minister At-Large Tománnach Citizen Party Leader,
FLP
Posts: 604
(24/7/05 5:07)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
I object to the motion for a vote on one issue. Whilst I am generally in favour of this reform package, I am against the proposal to abolish county representation. This has been a distinguishing feature of the political culture of Talamthom. The system of county representation - with the exception of the TREF - has generally worked well. There has been active participation by citizens in their counties. If one looks at the latest election figures, it was only the TREF which was unrepresented because of inactivity.
Uachtarain na Tománn
President of Talamthom DLP
Posts: 224
(24/7/05 17:33)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
I agree that it's a shame to see County representation go -- it did add a little culture/uniqueness to the otherwise pretty textbook election proceedure. A Tomann Flavour, indeed.
However, with our current participation levels, it does seem like this is the pragmatic solution.
A possible alternative, of course, is to add a cultural appendix, in which the individual seats in the Dáil are known by the names of our Counties? Perhaps difficult to do in practice, but it could be a ceremonial thing to be dealt with in the week after the elections. That way, each Minister has a 'constituency', though it's purely for tradition etc etc.
This could actually be one of the first bits of 'real' Talamthom history. We could stick an article in the University about how the chairs in the Dáil were carved with the emblems and names of the Counties, and that the names are still used today blah blah. Agreed, this is sounding a little cutesy.
Still, I'd be prepared to draft some legislation along these lines, if anybody thinks it's a good idea.
Head of the Citizens' Council Minister At-Large Tománnach Citizen Party Leader LPT
Posts: 821
(24/7/05 18:52)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
Regional representation is what makes our elections a joke. It's way more exciting and interesting for people if a 15 person electorate is electing 5 MP's... than if a 3 person electorate is electing 1 MP... or a 2 person electorate... or a sole elector.
See where I'm coming from? With this amendment, campaigns will take on meaning.
Let the "political culture" go. Remake your political culture - you're only a year old. But the current one is holding you back.
Minister At-Large Tománnach Citizen Party Leader,
FLP
Posts: 611
(24/7/05 22:56)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
We have heard the contradictary argument that on the one hand the TREF needs special constitutional status to protect its own cultural identity but that cultural identity for the other counties may be sacrificed for the sake of electoral efficiency.
May I remind the House that in the most recent elections to the Dail, three counties were entitled to individual representation: Freetown, the Sleepy Isles and the TREF. Freetown and the Sleepy Isles were able to elect a member, the TREF could not even find one of its citizens prepared to come forward as a candidate. The vacancy was filled by presidential appointment afterwards.
So the system actually works for the counties because there are active citizens who are prepared to come forward and stand as candidates. The only area where it does not work is in the TREF because of the abject levels of apathy there.
Why should the counties of the Republic be denied individual representation because of the apathy in the TREF?
Your point is taken. Nevertheless Mr Garine was appointed because nobody could be bothered to stand for the TREF seat in the Dail elections. Unlike the two other seats which were entitled to direct representation and for which people came forward to be nominated as candidates.
Head of the Citizens' Council Minister At-Large Tománnach Citizen Party Leader LPT
Posts: 824
(25/7/05 18:34)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
Quote:So are we saying that political culture for the TREF is acceptable but not for the other counties?
No. We are saying that political culture is what you make of it. Justifying an irrational electoral system on grounds of 'political culture' will only continue to hurt this micronation. With respect to the TREF, it clearly had a political culture evolving in a different track. Just look at its flag.
Quote:Why should the counties of the Republic be denied individual representation because of the apathy in the TREF?
If that's the argument I'm making, please slap me hard. But the TREF will lose its individual Dáil member under this scheme, too.
Let's not make the discussion of this procedural amendment a Dáil vote on the future of the TREF.
The President's symbolic approach is one way to keep the names of counties attached to the seats - until the population gets so large or small that the number of seats no longer accords with the number of counties.
Incidentally, the amendment is due for a vote. I cite 1.1 of the Dáil rules:
Quote:1.2 Members may call a vote before 10 days by motion and second. If the succeeding vote is negative, the bill or motion is debated up to another 10 days.
I moved the bill. I submit Mr. O'Ceallaigh's motion qualifies as a second. If the fact that he phrased it in terms of asking for a second obfuscates its secondary nature, I second the motion.
This amendment was debated extensively in at least two other fora for nearly a week. It had unanimous support. Only now do we hear from one member - a member who fully supported the proposal in those other discussions - arguments about some supposed political culture that would gut the core of the proposal.
Bottom line: Talamthom is not big enough to use counties as a basis for elections.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 1915
(25/7/05 20:51)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
Mr Gladstone, the TREF issue will be addressed separately. I have my theories as to what to do.
Uachtarain na Tománn
President of Talamthom DLP
Posts: 240
(27/7/05 12:53)
Re: Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
The Speaker didn't just put the poll back up because he was busy arguing with you, Mr Garine, and then resigning all positions and renouncing his citizenship. I presume re-polling the ammendment was going to be his next course of action.
And it is entirely possible you never saw the poll.
Head of the Citizens' Council Minister At-Large Tománnach Citizen Party Leader LPT
Posts: 837
(27/7/05 13:11)
Re: DT2005-054 - Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
"Mr. Gladstone had a number of choices. He could have reopened the poll, making my loud mouth look quite stupid. Instead he resigned."
Head of the Citizens' Council Minister At-Large Tománnach Citizen Party Leader LPT
Posts: 841
(28/7/05 18:23)
Re: DT2005-054 - Sensible Elections Amendment (6/3 proposal)
This amendment has failed in the Citizens' Council. Whoever cast the second 'no' ballot was enough to kill it. And all after the energizing wave of unanimity that the proposal initially saw.
Talamthom owes it to itself to get this thing passed at some point in the future.
But don't come to me for help. Honestly, I feel used and deceived.
Minister for Baile na hÁlainn Former President of Talamthom 11/06/04 - 19/06/05 Citizen of Talamthom Knight of Gotzborg and Alexandria DLP
Posts: 1931
(28/7/05 23:20)
Mr Garine, I fail to see how you have been cheated here. You proposed ammendments which were met with, agreed, unanimous approval. Once formally debated in our legislative organs, however, objections arose. This is perfectly normal and healthy, and is what happens in a democracy.
Unfortunately for Talamthom, these ammendments have failed to pass through the Citizen's Council. While regrettable, everything has been above board and I see no cause to cry "foul", as you have done. I particularly see no point or purpose in resigning your position here in the Dáil, unless it was your original intention to damage this nation.
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