north epirus
we all are familiar with the issue of north epirus. my personal opinion is that this efforts are aimed only at withdrawing the attention from the solution of the cham problem and creating friction so that it is forgoten ( everyone knows that the best defence is to attack).
if their efforts are so sincere why don't they seceed from greece and unite with northepirus so that we create this bicultural country of epirus as it used to be once?
that way i would love to be called epirotas or even vorio epirotas if you like it better
Epirus, the aarea where albanians migrated to and decided, "hey, its better here than in Albania" lets stay here and bread the greeks out and threaten them out.
I don't know too much about the Epirus issue, but I am sure that Greeks suffer as serbs and macedonians do from Albanians.
Re: north epirus
I think (as you said) greeks talking about north epirus are aimed only at withdrawing the attention from the solution of the cham problem. And that makes sense. Epirus is ancient history, and the truth is that its not proved that it was a greek state. Greek always go by the writings on the ancient stones, and that is enough for them to claim that epirus is greek. But I don't think that's enough, because at ancient times greek language was as an international language. The second reason for greeks is the greek settlements in the area of north epirus, like Butrint, etc, This argument doesn't hold water either, because greek settlements were spreaded all over mediterrain area, but they don't claim those areas. That's the way it used to be in ancient times, romans for example had settlements as far as in today's London in UK.
Knowing ancient history is a good thing, but applying it in nowdays, its not a good idea...
Quote:that way i would love to be called epirotas or even vorio epirotas if you like it better
I wouldn't prefer to be called epirotis or vorio-epirotis, I like being called albanian .
Regards Edited by: albquietman at: 11/17/03 6:11 am
Re: north epirus
In the risk of sounding too nationalistic, I think ēameria should belong to Albania, but I can't see it happening unless there's some sort of war, and man am I sick of wars in the balkans already. So my proposal is to let those people choose for themselves, and since I am not too familiar with that area what do you guys think the results would be if there was some sort of referendum in that area what would they choose?
Re: north epirus
Well if AKSH has its way there will be a war in Cameria in the medium-to-long term. They expect to raise about 30,000 volunteers though I have no idea why they would expect to have that kind of support.
As for the Chams in Albania they're trying the legal option. I'm not sure what's the status of the proceedings so far. Greece is already allowing the Macedonians they kicked out to go back and visit their villages. So things are moving in the right direction but slowly. As for wars, the ancient Greeks used to say that war is the mother of us all.
Kaoni99 Registered User
Posts: 50
(11/17/03 6:31 am) Reply
Re: north epirus
Are Greek politicians as serious about "North Epirus" as they used to be in the 1990-95 period?
I think that this issue has lost momentum since then.
Also, George Papandreou is much smarter than Pangalos. He recognizes that in today's Europe no territorial claim would be taken seriously, and however, any kind of claim would be based in very shallow roots.
Things have changed.
The two mobile-phone companies are owned (or co-owned) by Greek companies.
All the private banks, except BKT and ABA, are owned by Greek consortia and their market share has been increasing since.
So, when controlling the finance and and communications sector and welcoming home all the profits stemming from them, why on earth should a reasonable politician claim some territory inhabited by people which (George knows it very well) are not Greek.
That would mean saying "welcome" to a hell of problems.
And nobody wants it.
Instead of pushing on the "Epirus" issue, Greek foreign policy has shifted to more feasible and reasonable goals.
Albanian foreign policy should cleverly adjust.
How?
To be continued...
Re: north epirus
I don't think the war should be the way of solving problems in Balkan. As far as I know, chams are not asking to change the borders between Albania and Greece. All they want is to get back their properties in Greece. World is going toward globalization, we like it or not, so the borders between states in the future will be symbolic. Starting a war to change them will be the most stupid thing that could ever happen.
If it will be some sort of referendum, I think that should be when Albania and Greece will be almost at the same economic level. Economy will affect the results of the referendum if we do it now.
Re: north epirus
Quote:
____________________________________________________
"As far as I know, chams are not asking to change the borders between Albania and Greece. All they want is to get back their properties in Greece."
____________________________________________________
Definitely.
This is a legal issue regarding property rights.
Away from any political or ethnic implication.
It is to the international courts to decide the amount and the type of compensation to the Chams.
In an impartial way, leading to a peaceful solution.
So, we go back to the sweet 60'ies?
Make LOVE, not WAR?
No, it's not that simple.
But that's a starting point.
Re: north epirus
Funny arbanois, I have the exact same opinion regarding this 'issue'!!
The greek minority in Albania, an area to which they referr as 'Vorio-Epirus' (Northern Epirus) enjoy every human right, they've got their schools, their televisions, papers, even their own party (OMONIA)!! Yet they claim they're misstreated, and the epirotic lobby of the U.S does not hesitate to point fingers, especially Nick Gagojanis!!
Meanwhile, the Albanians of Greece, the Chams and Arvanites/Arberores are denied every right the 'vorio-epiriotes' enjoy (and yet complain??)!?!
________________________________
I to believe the attacks made by Nick Gaxojanis&co and pressures from the greek government etc is a pure selfdefense in order to make us 'forget' about the Cham/Arberor issue... (It always pisses me off when Greeks complain the greek minority in Albania is 'misstreated whereas the Albanian minority of Greece has no right at all)... It's pretty obvious when you think and analyze more carefully!!
To the Greeks: do you think it's ethical for Greeks to keep complaining while our minorities over there are misstreated (this mostly counts for those Vorio Epirus fanatics)??
Re: north epirus
unfortunately dijedon there is not many chams left in greece. they were almost all deployed to albania except for the ortodox ones that were assimilated and now probably feel more greek than greeks themselves. that's the past anyway. so i don't think you have an issue claiming more rights for a minority that does not ask it for itself .
same goes to chams in albania . it has to be them asking to be repatriated and get their properties back in a peaceful way , in that we would support them not the vice versa.
what bothers me now is not omonia or pbdnj as they living in albania are resoanable enough to understand but those people living on the other side of the world and forming epirus governments in exile going after old glories and feeling semigods about it. but what can you do this is democracy isn't it?
ymanatos Moderator
Posts: 406
(11/17/03 8:40 pm) Reply
Re: north epirus
Quote:To the Greeks: do you think it's ethical for Greeks to keep complaining while our minorities over there are misstreated (this mostly counts for those Vorio Epirus fanatics)??
Quote:unfortunately dijedon there is not many chams left in greece. they were almost all deployed to albania except for the ortodox ones that were assimilated and now probably feel more greek than greeks themselves.
Dijedon,
do you think it's ethical Greek minority' Human Lives to be threaden so badly at Himara, as it happened yesterday?? We have a similar topic at the Greek forum about the yesteday attacks, please feel free to join us... pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkanshellenicforum.showMessage?topicID=556.topic
You are talking about some Greek minority phanatics at Vorios Epirus over there, but it is the Albanian phanatics who are commiting the homosites against the Greek minority, during the elections...!!
How can you do this, against the reality happening?
Quote:unfortunately dijedon there is not many chams left in greece.
Albanois,
what you just said is also my own perception about Greek Epirus.
I say "perception", and not "conviction", because I dont have official statistics, but as I come from Corfu I have personal relations with many people at the area, and I think I would be aware of that hypothetical chams minority in greece - if existed...
Thank you for being so honest, and for sharing the truth with the people here on this.
Quote:Dijedon,
do you think it's ethical Greek minority' Human Lives to be threaden so badly at Himara, as it happened yesterday?? We have a similar topic at the Greek forum about the yesteday attacks, please feel free to join us... pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkanshellenicforum.showMessage?topicID=556.topic
Not at all!! Even though the 'greek' himariotes have provoced this Albanian rage, it's not justified!!!!!!!
However, do you think it's human when greek POLICE (not civilians/bandits ike n the Himara case) shoot an 18 year old kid?? I mean c'mon, the himariot that was shot by bandits/thieves/blinded nationalists whereas the 18year old kid was shot by POLICE!!!!!!
Quote:Albanois,
what you just said is also my own perception about Greek Epirus.
I say "perception", and not "conviction", because I dont have official statistics, but as I come from Corfu I have personal relations with many people at the area, and I think I would be aware of that hypothetical chams minority in greece - if existed...
Thank you for being so honest, and for sharing the truth with the people here on this.
Hmm, the reason why they dont 'show' is due to two small yet crucial words, OPRESSION and DISCRIMINATION!!
Now you forget aswell that there are 300,000 Chams in the diaspora, they were deported in WW2 by the forces of Napoleon Zervas, they have not been compensated for these crimes. Greece states 'the cham issue is a closed chapter' yet they hyppocritically demand compensation from Germany due to the Nazi reprisals/atrocities?!?!
www.rferl.org/nca/feature...180204.asp
That above shows their struggles for compensation/return to their homes after the crimes they endured during WW2!!
You also forget the Arvanites, the un-assimilated number atleats 100,000, they're especially in Beotia and Attica!!
You have no comments on them!!
The Arvanitika dialect of the Arvanites is a unique and ancient Albanian dialect, on the verge to get extinct b/c Greek government refuses to let them have their schools (meanwhile demanding further increase and privileges for the 'vorio-epiriotes'), the arvanite dialect is very valuable!!
And even if the Cham/Arvanite numbers seem 'small' it does not justify discrimination, especially taking into account that the 'vorio-epiriotes' are much less in numbers, makes your comment Thank you for being so honest, and for sharing the truth with the people here on this very offensive b/c you're implying that 'the Chams are insigcnificant in numbers' and thus your discrimination towards them is justified?!?!?!?!?
Conclusion: you ask me is it human for civil/bandit Albanians to kill greek himariotes?? No I dont think it is!!!
Question: is it human for greek POLICE (forgetting greek civilians/politics/bandits for the moment) to beat/murder unarmed emigrants??? Is it ethical/moral for greeks to demand more privileges for the greek minority in Epirus, though they're unsignificiant in numbers according to your logic (taking in mind there are mnore chsams/arvanites than 'vorio-epiriotes' and you think the chams/arvanites are unsignificiant in numbers) and meanwhile deny the existence of the Albanian minorities of Greece???? Is that HUMAN??
Quote:I say "perception", and not "conviction", because I dont have official statistics, but as I come from Corfu I have personal relations with many people at the area, and I think I would be aware of that hypothetical chams minority in greece - if existed...
guys the fact that i grew up nextdoor to a family of cham origin means they exits i suppose. by the way the elderly could speak and write perfect greek since they had studied elementary school in igoumenica( believe was there) but this does not mean that ymanatos is lying . i trust him to be honest and had he heard or known about them he would most certainly tell us.
to be continued....... meanwhile regards
Re: north epirus
In Kosova We are a Majority, and Will Always Remain, Kosova is Ours.
in Ēameria, Albanians were Ethnic Cleans after world war 2 , And those Albanians which were left, They were Greekenized, There is little chance about Getting Ēameria back.
East of Poland, Many Germans there but they were ethnic cleaned, Germany is a strong nation but can not do nothing, Same with Vojvodina, Vojvodina was Hungarian but its ethnic cleans by the Serbs, Hungarians can not do nothing .
I think Our chances are low.
Shqiptarėt si jon nė Greqi, Netė Shkojn Krejt nė Ēameri, edhe ndoshta bojm najsen tė ardhemerin.
([{Albanian Pride}])
ymanatos Moderator
Posts: 445
(11/19/03 12:25 am) Reply
Re: north epirus
Dijedon,
you want to give me history lessons from the Frosina Foundation... Sorry, but I have to ignore it.
Frosina is NOT a neutral source that I trust, and it is creating several material and theories with none other sources to match them, and it also creates several FALSE historical maps and I can prove you that they are false, but I am too boring to continue all this aggresive competition, so I'll let you to find it out in several years or even never.
You better should provide me neutral sources about things, rather than Frosina or whatever else non neutral. Anyway...
I'm too bored of all these aggresiveness and related "information" conflicts and competition, so I am letting you to continue it alone.
I am sure that every coin has 2 faces, but I dont thing that I would like to continue searhcing them, under the attitude that the each of the faces is and the only one.
Nevertheless, the reasons you mentioned do NOT justify the violence at Heimara, to my opinion.
If Greeks are playing dirty politics at Albania, that would not mean that Albanians should start ... executing the greek minority members...
Albania and also Turkey are playing dirty political games as well against Greece, but do you think that Greeks should punish any minority in Greece for this??? Aren't they political ways to handle them??
As about the 18yo kid shoot by the greek police, I dont know at what incident you refered, but I am sure that you must confusing crime with nationalism again...
And the most you albanians are doing it, the most credibility you lose about your claims...
You call the reasons of OPRESSION and DISCRIMINATION against any albanian descent left in Greece.
I am telling you this is bull$hip...
If these things ever existed, that was long long ago, during the Balkans Wars and the WW I & II.
Today it exists only into your minds, and only into your propaganda manuals, and this is ALL I have to say. And even if there is more than that, these should be specific and single incidents by some lunny who should be in Jail for that... So, help the Greek police to find him and to solve the problem, instead of creating more nationalism and aggresiveness...
Otherwise it is only these practices of yours that want to create a problem who doesn't exist!!
By the way, I remembered a guy from a village near Arta, a friend of mine, which has told me once that he probably has some Albanian roots, but THIS IS ALL that I have personally heard!
He has no any problem to say it, he had no oppresion or discrimination as you claim there, nobody sees him differently than the other people here, as you want to present it!! and he has a totally greek culture today and he is considered a Greek by everybody and probably from himself as well.
He is a Greek with some Albanian roots with no any problem, and he does not feel that he belongs to any ... minority, as far as I know about my friend.
I am sure there must be more like him, and I am sure there must be many Albanians as well with Greek roots who dont even count into the greek minority in Albania, neither anyone knows about their roots, but SO WHAT?
So, please, keep your nationalistically motivated truths for the people there, rather than me, because I will never believe that there are elephants with wings flying (lol), neither I have serious reasons to seek for them, until I see them on my own or with some neutral attitude assistance.
And if I cannot see them alone, then you could maybe showed them to me, but you will never do as long as your attitude is motivated by the antagonistic nationalism for no reason.
RE,SOUTH ALBANIA!!!
RE SOUTH ALBANIA AGAIN,(WITH CAMERIA).Re Greeks,beter you look your minorities in your country wich you newer accept!LEAVE THE HYPOCRISY.
Re: north epirus
Maybe Frosina isnt neutral (not sure..) but nontheless facts remains facts, regardless if the ones whom post/publish them is neutral or not, the truth cannot be hidden!
As for this History part, well i'll continue only if you and your countrymen continue complaining about how the 'vorio-epiriotes' are abused et cetera whereas the Albanian minorities can only dream of such privileges!!
As for the Himara incident, I never intended to justify it because it's not justifiable, I merely explained the huge difference between the cases of Greece and Albania.
It wasnt the state/police/military whom shot that poor himariot, it was some blinded nationalist, whereas the Albanian whom was shot by Greeks was shot by Greek police!!
That's a huge difference, and my point is that one cannot hand over the guilt to an entire people/state (you claimed in thebeginning that we're 'misstreating' you) based on the acts of certain individuals, especially when Greece itself misstreat all of it's minorities, and I'm not referring to individual cases here!!!
As for your choice to close your eyes (or maybe deny, dont know since I dont know you personnally) before the discrimination and opression hich you claim 'only exists in our fantasy' is regretable, honestly.... It's humorous for me (of course you cant understand that humore since you dont see it from my perspective) when you confuse the acts of some individual Albanians whom kill an himariot with political opression against 'vorio-epirioes' and meanwhile denying that discrimination/opression exist in Greece!?!?
Now I dont think it's necessarely for me to go through all of the cases of Albania (there are many) so I'll give you my answer in a socratical way, by asking yo a question: what does it tell you when Greece claims 100% ethnical purity, beeing alone in Europe in a homogenous aspect?? Doesnt it tell you anything, doesnt it make you the least suspicious??
Quote:By the way, I remembered a guy from a village near Arta, a friend of mine, which has told me once that he probably has some Albanian roots, but THIS IS ALL that I have personally heard!
He has no any problem to say it, he had no oppresion or discrimination as you claim there, nobody sees him differently than the other people here, as you want to present it!! and he has a totally greek culture today and he is considered a Greek by everybody and probably from himself as well.
He is a Greek with some Albanian roots with no any problem, and he does not feel that he belongs to any ... minority, as far as I know about my friend.
I am sure there must be more like him, and I am sure there must be many Albanians as well with Greek roots who dont even count into the greek minority in Albania, neither anyone knows about their roots, but SO WHAT?
Then you ask yourself why no one sees him differently? Of course they wont when he's a greek with distinct Albanian roots for which he doesnt care, why making him an outcast??
Quote:So, please, keep your nationalistically motivated truths for the people there, rather than me, because I will never believe that there are elephants with wings flying (lol), neither I have serious reasons to seek for them, until I see them on my own or with some neutral attitude assistance.
Hmm, as long as you keep your complaints about opression against vorio-epiritotes for yourself, then it's OK for me!!
Just like you dont believe (or more likely refuse to believe) there's any opression in Greece towards minorities (oh which i forgot DONT existn accoring to Greece's statements) I dont believe there's any opression against himariotes/vorio-epiriotes in Albania as simple as that!!
Quote: And if I cannot see them alone, then you could maybe showed them to me, but you will never do as long as your attitude is motivated by the antagonistic nationalism for no reason.
Same counts for you when you try to convince me our goverment is "opressing" and "misstreating" greek minorities and at the same time denying there's any similiar cases in Greece which is, I might add, 100% homogenous, a thing even the most isolated tutsi tribes of Africa cant brag with
please visit the greek side for info of n.epirus
there is a full info
allot in engl..or in greek
go and have look..
shpata Moderator
Posts: 1302
(11/22/03 11:02 pm) Reply
Re: please visit the greek side for info of n.epirus
why do we have to lok at greek side?? what your map calls vori epirus is in albania. i used to visit the place evry summer. i nver met any greeks there.
Well well well i see the greeks(freeks) are at it again !
I have not been on this forum for about 9months i left it due to the insantity that prevails.Shpata remembers the comments and at first was anti-greek then i saw him turn a bit pro greek by telling me to tone down my comments and that peace should be the thing in the forum.So then i left .Shpata i see that they promoted you to moderater and i see that you gone back to being anti-greek i wonder what changed your mind !Anywayz i thought i would check in to see whats happening and its the same insane thing still.I dont know how you can handle these greeks Shpata, that @#%$ pyrros really pissed me off @#%$! I will check in time to time and see whats happening !TE RROFT SHQIPERIA EDHE LIRI PER CAMERIA !!!!!!!!!!!!! PEACE TO EVERYONE(except to ******)
Edited by: Xalvas at: 11/22/06 9:28 pm
or even vorio epirotas if you like it better
.
, And those Albanians which were left, They were Greekenized, There is little chance about Getting Ēameria back.
RE,SOUTH ALBANIA!!!
as simple as that!!
please visit the greek side for info of n.epirus
at: 11/22/06 9:28 pm
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